C Valve Trombone Question

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SC2Ba
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C Valve Trombone Question

Post by SC2Ba »

Long-time lurker, have learned a lot, but this is only my second time posting. I’m 66 years old and play tuba in a New Horizons community band and have a lot of fun doing that. My brain remembered trumpet fingerings from way back in high school and college, and I can read bass clef competently; I eventually settled on a CC tuba (Mack 410 and more recently Wessex Chicago Presence) so I don’t have to deal with transposing. With retirement from my day job (where I’m a psychologist, not a musician) coming up soon, I decided to also play in the New Horizons jazz band. It’s an odd assortment of whatever instruments show up. They definitely need low brass, but the tuba is not a great fit for that group. In the first couple of rehearsals I have either played the same part as the string bass or played a 4th trombone part, mostly down an octave. The director asked me if I could play euphonium instead of tuba in the jazz group. That does make sense to me. I may have too quickly agreed to do so, and am struggling with transposing again. I can work on Bb fingerings more after I retire, but am considering getting a trombone-pitched instrument in the key of C. From what I have read, C euphoniums are rare and universally get bad reviews. I have been able to find websites that sell valve trombones in the key of C; the only “affordable” one I find is on the Wessex site. But I find no reviews of C valve trombones and little information about them at all. I’m very satisfied with my Wessex tuba (and gig bags and stand), but I don’t know anything about the trombones (or trumpets/cornets, etc.) they sell. If anyone has helpful and relevant thoughts about whether a C valve trombone would be a worthwhile purchase I would appreciate your input. I am assuming, of course, that a valve trombone, even in the key of C, would fit reasonably well in a traditional trombone section. And if there are other options (other than “get a teacher” and “learn the Bb fingerings,” both of which I will do!) I would appreciate hearing about those. I will continue to play tuba in concert band, and I expect that there will be plenty of opportunity to play a valve trombone in the jazz group(s). Thanks!
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Re: C Valve Trombone Question

Post by WC8KCY »

For what the Wessex C costs--just $475--I'd be inclined to give it a try.

While a valve trombone doesn't respond or sound exactly like a slide trombone made to the same specifications, it's a more complete and appropriate substitute than using a baritone or euphonium.

This a small-bore/small-bell instrument, likely to have a lively, bright, and soloistic timbre more appropriate for lead trombone rather than 4th. Having played small-bore B-flat valve trombones, I would expect it to be prone to blat, so carefully selecting a mouthpiece is going to be at the top of your list of things to do.

For covering a 4th trombone part, perhaps a bucket mute would be useful is toning down the upper harmonics.
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swillafew
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Re: C Valve Trombone Question

Post by swillafew »

I have a valve trombone I would like to sell. A prospective buyer told me he wanted to cut one to C. Tuba players hear this all the time, but I don't think the trombone/euphonium world has any real place for it.

I am also playing more trombone these days. I am no big deal as a slide player, but the leader of a small jazz group is asking specifically for all the glissandi I can give him. Hence, I would like to sell a very nice valve bone that would otherwise be fine for me.
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Art Hovey
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Re: C Valve Trombone Question

Post by Art Hovey »

Juan Tizol, composer of "Caravan" and long-time member of the Ellington trombone section, played a fairly large-bore valve trombone in C.
I saw Reverend Sanders playing it once. If I remember correctly it had a 4th piston mounted horizontally for the thumb.
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Doug Elliott
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Re: C Valve Trombone Question

Post by Doug Elliott »

I once saw a Yamaha valve trombone in C being played in Spain, so they probably sell them there. C bass trumpets and saxhorns are not uncommon in Europe.

Found it - the Yamaha one is YSL-354VC
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Re: C Valve Trombone Question

Post by WC8KCY »

One consideration that didn't occur to me before: A 3-valve C instrument will only go down to F#--and you won't have to look very hard to find a 4th 'bone part calling for low F-naturals.

It's little wonder, then, that Juan Tizol's C had a 4th valve on it...
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Re: C Valve Trombone Question

Post by Snake Charmer »

It is very interesting (and sad!) to see that the valve trombone with four valves is nearly forgotten. There were the Czech/German/Austrian rotary instruments with four in-line valves, but they are nearly gone. In France they were quite popular with pistons, most of them 3+1, few of them 4 in-line, but they stopped making them after WW1. I have got two of them, a 1931 DePrins in Bb and a 1893 Besson in C. The C is the much better horn, with a very narrow bore giving a trumpet-like tone. It is great for soloing in jazz combos. Only the glissandi are not so perfect...
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rodgeman
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Re: C Valve Trombone Question

Post by rodgeman »

Maybe the Wessex French Tuba in C might work? It is euphonium size with a little larger bore than a bass trombone.
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Snake Charmer
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Re: C Valve Trombone Question

Post by Snake Charmer »

This would be e great choice, too. I used my Courtois for some years with a Big Band playing the trombone 4 part.
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Re: C Valve Trombone Question

Post by Bob Kolada »

Snake Charmer wrote:This would be e great choice, too. I used my Courtois for some years with a Big Band playing the trombone 4 part.

That's a very interesting use!
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Re: C Valve Trombone Question

Post by SC2Ba »

Thanks so much to everyone for all of the very helpful comments. I wasn't sure what kind of response, if any, I would get posting this question on a tuba forum. WC8KCY, thanks for your quick response and for answering the questions I did not know enough to ask. Snake Charmer, I really appreciated the historical perspective. I was curious about the overall demand for such an instrument, and Doug even addressed that in noting its use in Spain. I really like the idea of the French C tuba, but that's a lot more than I can justify spending at this point. Earlier this year I bought the Wessex Chicago tuba and more recently purchased an inexpensive used trumpet, so I have already overspent my budget for toys to play with in retirement. Swillafew, I will send a PM about the valve trombone you are selling. One point of clarification, I did not intend to imply that I have to play a 4th trombone part; I was playing that part because it was the best fit for a tuba. With a valve trombone I would more likely be playing 1st or 2nd or maybe 3rd trombone parts. Thanks again, everyone!
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Re: C Valve Trombone Question

Post by iiipopes »

Yamaha has an ascending valve Bb/C model for students who have not achieved full stature with their arms. It seems that if a player wanted the bone in C, then all that might need to be done would be to reverse the linkage to get C as the open note.
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Re: C Valve Trombone Question

Post by ArnoldGottlieb »

Art Hovey wrote:Juan Tizol, composer of "Caravan" and long-time member of the Ellington trombone section, played a fairly large-bore valve trombone in C.
I saw Reverend Sanders playing it once. If I remember correctly it had a 4th piston mounted horizontally for the thumb.
I got to play Reverend Sanders, and later Monsignor Sanders horn a bunch of times. He often hired us college kids as a rhythm section so he could play jazz for the kids or as brass players for services. It was never too hard to get him to talk about playing with Elllington and he loved that we wanted to hear his stories. I know that his C valve trombone was a king that was made for Juan Tizol, and there is a second one somewhere that Tizol kept. The way the Reverend told me the story, was that when he got Tizol’s job, the horn came with it. I do remember the thumb valve and wishing at that point in my life that I could find a horn like that to match my CC tuba. What a great player and even greater human being that man was!
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