Petal F on a Eb Tuba

[vespa50sp]

I'm a community band member who recently picked up playing Eb tuba after many years on a BBb. I enjoy playing the Eb because if feels more nimble, but have been missing out on the petal F's that turn up in band music on a regular basis.

The fingering charts I am looking at are showing it is possible to play a F with 1,2,3,4 (non-compensating) and 1,2,4 (compensating).

If I'm looking for another tuba, are there any particular Eb models that do well down below Bb and can punch out a petal F? Or is that a dream...

Thanks

[Ltrain]

PM Daniel Ridder (kontrabasstuba). He has a great video of himself (that I wouldn’t share without his permission) playing a BAMF pedal F on a Kanstul 66S... which is currently for sale at an unprecedented price BTW.

I wish I could help you personally, put I’ve only achieved a passable pedal G on my Eastman so far... it’s not the horn though, it’s me. I’ll play around and report back if/when I ever hit it

[Ltrain]

Addendum:

Do you mean a true pedal F, or just regular low F that’s 4 lines below the staff in bass clef? For the latter: it’s an easy-blowing 134 on my Eastman compensating. Blows as freely as any BBb horn I’ve ever owned.

For non-comp 4-valve horns, you’re looking at 1234 + some lipping and/or a big slide pull. YMMV.

[NCSUSousa]

I'm a community band member who recently picked up playing Eb tuba after many years on a BBb. I enjoy playing the Eb because if feels more nimble, but have been missing out on the petal F's that turn up in band music on a regular basis.

The fingering charts I am looking at are showing it is possible to play a F with 1,2,3,4 (non-compensating) and 1,2,4 (compensating).

If I'm looking for another tuba, are there any particular Eb models that do well down below Bb and can punch out a petal F? Or is that a dream...

Thanks

Something tells me you're looking at a not-very-helpful fingering chart if you're trying 1-2-4 on a Compensating Eb and expecting to reach low F.
This guy's chart says it's 1-3-4 on a compensating Eb. https://www.norlanbewley.com/tuba/finge ... ba-3cv.htm
This guy's chart says 1-3-4 as well - https://olemiss.edu/lowbrass/studio/fin ... gering.pdf

When you're in that range (4th valve + 2 more), there is variation between instrument make/models so you need to try other fingerings or slide pulls to figure out where the pitch is stable.
4V Compensating instruments should need less (or no) pull, but can sometimes need a slide pull when you're that far below the normal 4th valve tone.

[Donn]

If I'm looking for another tuba, are there any particular Eb models that do well down below Bb and can punch out a petal F? Or is that a dream...

That Kanstul 66S might have been a good bet (now gone, but it isn't the only one in the world), thanks to its extra 5th valve. There are some compensating Eb tubas, at similar prices, that would help (4V Blaikley compensating diagram.) Bloke has devoted some study to the 4V compensating system and that low F: compensating for the compensating system.

With a standard 4V Eb, you need to tune the valves for a whole lot of compromise to get anywhere near that whole octave out of them. Does your lying finger chart say you can use V4 for Bb? If you're going to play Ab and G in tune, V4 has to be much flatter. From there, Gb and F are mostly about having a good imagination. Or you pull slides to make up the difference, instead of compromise tuning. Or you can try for them with "false tones" - play F 12__ and see what happens.

[Sousaswag]

Think of that pedal F as a pedal D on a CC tuba or a pedal C on a BBb tuba. When I play the equivalent note on F tuba (pedal G) I'm thinking of the air I would use down low on my big CC horn. Remember that bass tubas can't take as much down low as a BBb or CC. The minute you play a bass tuba like a contrabass tuba, that bass tuba won't like you.

[vespa50sp]

Addendum:

Do you mean a true pedal F, or just regular low F that’s 4 lines below the staff in bass clef? For the latter: it’s an easy-blowing 134 on my Eastman compensating. Blows as freely as any BBb horn I’ve ever owned.

For non-comp 4-valve horns, you’re looking at 1234 + some lipping and/or a big slide pull. YMMV.

The regular low F four lines below the staff, so I'll give 1234 a try in the AM for the fun of it. I just miss the "rumble" of a larger BBb horn on that note and can't seem to hit it on the Eb. Thanks

[Donn]

Seriously, try 12 - like C, but blow a solid F and that's what you'll get. It isn't perfect, short on harmonic structure or something, but it should have more meat on it because it isn't trying to fit into 10 feet of narrow cylindrical valve tubing.

[GC]

Seriously, try 12 - like C, but blow a solid F and that's what you'll get. It isn't perfect, short on harmonic structure or something, but it should have more meat on it because it isn't trying to fit into 10 feet of narrow cylindrical valve tubing.

That works off the false tone open Ab below low Eb on an Eb tuba, the equivalent note to false low open Eb on a BBb tuba. This works better on piston tubas and sousaphones than on rotary (at least for me). I find that I have a harder time getting this to work on Eb tubas, including my new JP/Sterling 377. The Eb that had the best false tones for me was a Civil-war era saxhorn, a side rotor (not front), contrary to my earlier comment.

[Patrase]

Having played many different types of Eb’s I think it comes down to technique, mouthpiece and the instrument. I remember, years ago, playing Mahler 1 on a Eb and struggling with the jump from an A at the top of the stave to the pedal F. With practice and a different mouthpiece (for me switching from a wide to narrow rim mouthpiece of similar dimensions) it was much easier. Generally speaking a non compensating piston tuba will be the easiest to pump out the low F. Eg the Willson models, the Meinl Weston 2141, Wessex Gnagey. But on that note you need to get the right combination of fingering/slide pulls to get intonation correct.

[DouglasJB]

Of the non-comp's just previously mentioned, the Willson is going to offer usable intonation...except - ironically - the pitch being discussed in this thread, which - on a 5-valve non-comp system tuba - is the typical "no man's land" pitch: the 5-2-3-4 pitch, which is always horridly sharp, requiring a sudden reach over to the #4 slide (if reachable) and an epic pull.

Again, it's usually also pretty badly sharp on a 3+1 comp., but an aftermarket extra-long #3 comp. slide solves the problem - and without causing any other problems.

On my 2141 I set my 5th kinda half way between Ab and F and use the 4th to adjust the rest, I find I dont have to pull very far for the low F. Everyone's experiences will vary though

[toobagrowl]

The fingering charts I am looking at are showing it is possible to play a F with 1,2,3,4 (non-compensating) and 1,2,4 (compensating).

If I'm looking for another tuba, are there any particular Eb models that do well down below Bb and can punch out a petal F? Or is that a dream...

Thanks

Dunno where you got those fingerings, but they are 'off' to say the least. If you play 1+2+3+4 on a non-comp Eb, it will be a very sharp F, or flat F#/Gb. You'd have to pull out a couple slides way out to get an in-tune low F. On a comp. Eb, low F will be 1+3+4. On a non-comp 5v Eb, low F will be 5+2+3+4.

Depending on the horn and how long/flat the 5th is depends on how much you may need to 'set' certain slides. On my 5v Holton 'Monster' Eb, I have my 5th slide out about an inch or so (typical flat-whole-step) for low A, Ab, G, Gb, F, and E (all 5 valves or false tone 2+3 for low E).

As for punching out a low F, some horns are just easier to do that on than others. I have to work at getting good fat volume in the low register on my Eb tubas; they just can't compete with my CC and BBb tubas in the lower register. But the right mouthpiece (and practice) can sure improve things.

I'm a community band member who recently picked up playing Eb tuba after many years on a BBb. I enjoy playing the Eb because if feels more nimble, but have been missing out on the petal F's that turn up in band music on a regular basis.

The fingering charts I am looking at are showing it is possible to play a F with 1,2,3,4 (non-compensating) and 1,2,4 (compensating).

If I'm looking for another tuba, are there any particular Eb models that do well down below Bb and can punch out a petal F? Or is that a dream...

Thanks

Something tells me you're looking at a not-very-helpful fingering chart if you're trying 1-2-4 on a Compensating Eb and expecting to reach low F.
This guy's chart says it's 1-3-4 on a compensating Eb. https://www.norlanbewley.com/tuba/finge ... ba-3cv.htm
This guy's chart says 1-3-4 as well - https://olemiss.edu/lowbrass/studio/fin ... gering.pdf

When you're in that range (4th valve + 2 more), there is variation between instrument make/models so you need to try other fingerings or slide pulls to figure out where the pitch is stable.
4V Compensating instruments should need less (or no) pull, but can sometimes need a slide pull when you're that far below the normal 4th valve tone.

^ This

[Patrase]

That’s why I am so tempted to put a 6th valve on my Eb tuba. But lately I am only being asked to play Bb tuba in brass bands and my Eb is sitting unused.

[opus37]

I have a Kanstul 66. What works best on that horn is 1234. On a microphone Eb 1345 works best. By best I mean most in tune.