CC Kaiser Tuba

[bort]

Joe, I'm definitely familiar with the 197, and have seen AVP play his w/Berlin several times. It's a hell of a big tuba, and a sound that I think does best with a full German brass section. (Meaning, plop a 197 into an otherwise unchanged American brass section... I dunno, not the same.)

I have a friend in South America who is in the long, long process of trying to import a 197 into his country. It's slow, it's expensive to get it there, and his patience is sure to be rewarded tremendously.

For me, I bailed on the Kaiser CC idea just like I did with the American made rotary CC idea. After a while, it just wasn't worth pursuing fruitlessly any more, for questionable results.

Again, my Alex 163 is plenty large enough for me, and I couldn't be happier with it. Would have been nice to find this tuba a few years ago and saved some trouble, but oh well, that's not a big problem.

[Rick Denney]

My Hirsbrunner HBS-193 is called a Kaiser by Hirsbrunner. It is 44” tall, has a 19” bell, and an 18’ bugle. The .807 bore is the only marginal dimension.

I’ve played the 195 Fafner, and it’s a great tuba. The Hirsbrunner is better for me—the sound has more flexibility and more color. It’s hyper-clear compared to the Holton, possibly louder, but with a meaty rather than fatty sound. I think of Arnold in his prime, overtly muscular but still a heavyweight, versus Andre the Giant, just plain big. That’s what a kaiser should do—project power. The Holton is less forbidding. “Better” and “worse” is nonsensical, not so “appropriate” and “inappropriate”.

The Holton is great for band transcriptions in resonant halls. But the Hirsbrunner works better in the dead school auditoriums in which we play that have stages with no shells. The Holton is better in more reverberant rooms, which it can fill comprehensively. The Hirsbrunner just goes straight to the listener, and who cares about the room?

The Hirsbrunner is less remote-feeling than the Bb 190 (or the Wessex kaiser).

Miraphone doesn’t need the Modell 90 any more. They have the Siegfried and the Hagen, notwithstanding the 40” height.

Rick “a Rudi Meinl 5/4 comes closest to a CC Kaiser” Denney

[pjv]

The 98 is taller, being 40,157" (1020mm) whereas the 497 is 39,370" (1000mm).
My 496 is actually taller than both of them at 40,748" (1035mm), but if you wear platform shoes you doen't notice this.

[grayax]

I actually can't believe I've never seriously tried to own a Fafner. The sound is amazing. Physically, they look kind of boring, so maybe I've just ignored them because of that...

You and I missed out twice each on the same Fafner!

I believe Buckeye Brass (I am not affiliated with them) still has theirs. I played it a few times before going on lock down. It played great, but a tiny bit out of my nonexistent price range.

[kingrob76]

This thread has revived my appetite for a CC 190-ish type horn that actually doesn't suck.

[Ted Cox]

Five months ago I took a chance and bought a CC Alexander 164 with 5 valves. There are several postings from me on tubenet regarding my experience with this model so far. Tony Clements had the tuba built in 2004 - now I own it. Alexander tubas are the only tubas I've played that come close to the color in my soul - I can't explain it better than that. I know what sound I want to produce. My first tuba teacher played an Alex in the Phoenix Symphony. I learned F tuba on an Alex at Indiana University in the early 80's. I bought my first CC 163 in early 1992 and then a backup 163 in 2011.
When I switched from my Miraphone 186 to the Alex, it took time to find my bearings. I knew the same thing would be true playing the 164 - so I was patient. Alexander labels the 164 as a Kaiser tuba - and since they've been making tubas from the beginning of the tuba being invented - I think it's safe to say, the 164 is a Kaiser tuba. This model is rare - the first I've ever played - the second I've ever seen in 52 years of playing the tuba.
This past Tuesday, I finally had the chance to play the 164 in a big room with other brass players. The Philharmonic section got together to read for two hours. Although there is more work to do on my end, the "test drive" was a big success. There was zero problem with pitch and the sound was glorious. If I chose to push the volume, I overbalanced with ease. I can't help but wonder where I'll be with this instrument in another 5 months.
Alexander has been making CC 164's for over 100 years. They are not cut BBb's - done at the factory in order to fill an order. Because they are larger, they are obviously more expensive. Add a fifth valve and the price goes up accordingly. No one can sit down with a 164 and have it figured out from the first toot - they take time and they expose a players weaknesses. Any deficiency in sound production will be magnified. Any deficiency with playing in tune will be magnified. However, if you spend time working on what you can't do very well, you get better.
IF by chance you run across a 164 to play, you might just sit down with an open mind and see what comes out. My wife was a musician and I trust her ears more than anyone else on the planet. Her response after only a few notes five months ago was, "Wow!"
Oh, and the low end, especially low E down to the fundamental C is the most responsive of any tuba I've ever played.
The photo shows my 164 on the left and my brass 163 on the right for comparison.

[bort]

Ted -- always interested to hear about this tuba. How do you know it's not cut from a 164 BBb? Because for so many years, the 163 CC was cut from a 163 BBb (but later was redesigned). Was the 164 part of that redesign effort?

[tobysima`]

Five months ago I took a chance and bought a CC Alexander 164 with 5 valves. There are several postings from me on tubenet regarding my experience with this model so far. Tony Clements had the tuba built in 2004 - now I own it. Alexander tubas are the only tubas I've played that come close to the color in my soul - I can't explain it better than that. I know what sound I want to produce. My first tuba teacher played an Alex in the Phoenix Symphony. I learned F tuba on an Alex at Indiana University in the early 80's. I bought my first CC 163 in early 1992 and then a backup 163 in 2011.
When I switched from my Miraphone 186 to the Alex, it took time to find my bearings. I knew the same thing would be true playing the 164 - so I was patient. Alexander labels the 164 as a Kaiser tuba - and since they've been making tubas from the beginning of the tuba being invented - I think it's safe to say, the 164 is a Kaiser tuba. This model is rare - the first I've ever played - the second I've ever seen in 52 years of playing the tuba.
This past Tuesday, I finally had the chance to play the 164 in a big room with other brass players. The Philharmonic section got together to read for two hours. Although there is more work to do on my end, the "test drive" was a big success. There was zero problem with pitch and the sound was glorious. If I chose to push the volume, I overbalanced with ease. I can't help but wonder where I'll be with this instrument in another 5 months.
Alexander has been making CC 164's for over 100 years. They are not cut BBb's - done at the factory in order to fill an order. Because they are larger, they are obviously more expensive. Add a fifth valve and the price goes up accordingly. No one can sit down with a 164 and have it figured out from the first toot - they take time and they expose a players weaknesses. Any deficiency in sound production will be magnified. Any deficiency with playing in tune will be magnified. However, if you spend time working on what you can't do very well, you get better.
IF by chance you run across a 164 to play, you might just sit down with an open mind and see what comes out. My wife was a musician and I trust her ears more than anyone else on the planet. Her response after only a few notes five months ago was, "Wow!"
Oh, and the low end, especially low E down to the fundamental C is the most responsive of any tuba I've ever played.
The photo shows my 164 on the left and my brass 163 on the right for comparison.

Looks glorious! Too bad I'm a little small man haha.

[tobysima`]

Five months ago I took a chance and bought a CC Alexander 164 with 5 valves. There are several postings from me on tubenet regarding my experience with this model so far. Tony Clements had the tuba built in 2004 - now I own it. Alexander tubas are the only tubas I've played that come close to the color in my soul - I can't explain it better than that. I know what sound I want to produce. My first tuba teacher played an Alex in the Phoenix Symphony. I learned F tuba on an Alex at Indiana University in the early 80's. I bought my first CC 163 in early 1992 and then a backup 163 in 2011.
When I switched from my Miraphone 186 to the Alex, it took time to find my bearings. I knew the same thing would be true playing the 164 - so I was patient. Alexander labels the 164 as a Kaiser tuba - and since they've been making tubas from the beginning of the tuba being invented - I think it's safe to say, the 164 is a Kaiser tuba. This model is rare - the first I've ever played - the second I've ever seen in 52 years of playing the tuba.
This past Tuesday, I finally had the chance to play the 164 in a big room with other brass players. The Philharmonic section got together to read for two hours. Although there is more work to do on my end, the "test drive" was a big success. There was zero problem with pitch and the sound was glorious. If I chose to push the volume, I overbalanced with ease. I can't help but wonder where I'll be with this instrument in another 5 months.
Alexander has been making CC 164's for over 100 years. They are not cut BBb's - done at the factory in order to fill an order. Because they are larger, they are obviously more expensive. Add a fifth valve and the price goes up accordingly. No one can sit down with a 164 and have it figured out from the first toot - they take time and they expose a players weaknesses. Any deficiency in sound production will be magnified. Any deficiency with playing in tune will be magnified. However, if you spend time working on what you can't do very well, you get better.
IF by chance you run across a 164 to play, you might just sit down with an open mind and see what comes out. My wife was a musician and I trust her ears more than anyone else on the planet. Her response after only a few notes five months ago was, "Wow!"
Oh, and the low end, especially low E down to the fundamental C is the most responsive of any tuba I've ever played.
The photo shows my 164 on the left and my brass 163 on the right for comparison.

I'm going to borrow one of my school's Yamaha 641's so I can work more on "German vs. American" and start to form some sort of "I like this better."