Will changing tuning slides affect the sound?

[Yoshi]

You hear trumpet and trombone players changing parts of their instruments (e.g., bell, tuning slides, etc) to the one with a different finish (e.g., gold plated, etc), to play around with their color of sound.

In the case of tuba, it is common to see instruments finished in lacquered, silver plated, and often unlacquered. Some times, people change their bells to gold brass, instead of yellow brass...but I just wondered, what about tuning slides?

Tuning slides may be smaller portions of the instruments compared to the bell, but I wondered if it is still something relevant (even for a large instrument like a tuba)...for example, switching all tuning slides from silver-plated ones to gold-plated ones or unlacquered ones?　(meaning there will be two sets of tuning slides in the end)

Was thinking it may be interesting (especially for F tuba?!), but also wondered whether it is worth the investment. Is there any one who did this before?

[GeoffC_UK]

Morning Yoshi,
I am certain there shall be people that know better about these things (in this chat group) than I.
But here is a view of a tuba player and, in the day-time, a manufacturing engineer.

Resonance must impact on sound that a horn (and you) make.
Resonance is impacted by a material’s make-up and its stiffness.
The various brasses you mention are differently alloyed (make-up) and their stiffness should also be different, all else being equal.
Plating/ coating surely must impact on stiffness, I would believe, so should impact on resonance and therefore sound.
Some components of a tuba will resonate more freely than others, eg. a bell component will resonate more than a tuning slide pushed fully home.
So, the audible difference of changing alloy or plating, you could argue, is less impactful on an in-situ slide to that of a bell.
There could possibly be a difference if you changed slides, but would it be noticeable?
Most of my harmonics’ engineering work was on aircraft, but they do work within the same laws of physics I would hope.
Not sure whether this helped.

[Yoshi]

Thank you GeoffC_UK for your comment!

That's true, bells will likely to resonate more than tuning slides.

Compared to bells, I suppose, tuning slides are much easier to change, but its impact on sound may be more subtle.

It made me wonder though how subtle.

Some people say that weight of mouthpieces and/or their coating/plating affect our sound and how one plays...would using different set of tuning slides with different finishes be something similar to that?

One might say weight of mouthpiece may make a subtle difference, but for me, it made a big difference IMHO. I have used Giddings Pilafian mouthpiece with different weight, and a lighter weight went well with a large 5/4 tuba (resistance was bit too strong with heavy weight), while heavy weight added more sound to 3/4 tuba. This experience made me curious about playing around with tuning slides. Sometimes subtle difference may not be noticeable by the audience, but affects how we play.

I am feeling that though right now may not be the best timing to order another set of tuning slides (as the price of golds and other things are skyrocketing), I wondered playing around with tuning slides may be another route to seek "different" sound/responses - using the same tuba.

[GeoffC_UK]

Hello Yoshi
You are thinking and questioning.
That is a good thing.
Certainly, adding mass (weight) can dampen vibration and that, too, is a contributor of produced sound.

The science surrounding how a human being makes musical sound with a tuba, in a given environment, must be incredibly complex.

Humans are unique creatures – everyone, every tubist is different.
Tubas are mostly manufactured by skilled artisans – each tuba is different.
Playing in venues can be public parks, grand theatres, bandrooms, or a tiny apartment – each with very different acoustics.

There are certainly core threads to how a tuba works well.

There are certainly very knowledge tuba gurus that understand how it all works (I’m not one).

Much of the rest is trial and guess work in how the thing does what it does.

Hopefully others will add their views, rather than my own with an engineer’s slant.

[timothy42b]

Morning Yoshi,
I am certain there shall be people that know better about these things (in this chat group) than I.
But here is a view of a tuba player and, in the day-time, a manufacturing engineer.

Resonance must impact on sound that a horn (and you) make.
Resonance is impacted by a material’s make-up and its stiffness.

True, and few people seem to understand it. (spent way too much time solving stiffness matrices in engineering school. Eigenvectors, argh, glad I never ended up doing that at work)

However, a tuba makes sound by resonance within an air column, not the brass structure. How much coupling there is between the two is a matter of debate, but it must be vanishingly small. It is not necessarily true that resonance of the brass MUST impact detectably on sound the air makes. It MAY, but MUST is overstated.

[GeoffC_UK]

A lot of truth in that - raspberry in mouthpiece and megaphone.
Years of research could be expended to determine, if only I was younger.

Interestingly, a couple of times my ol' band has played a piece of music and used "cuivré".
Now, not being French horns, we interpreted that as clutching the bell firmly with our left hand.
The sound immediately became more direct and brassier.
https://youtu.be/AprmgunwiWk
Section starts at 9:00 mins (fanfares) with euphonium/baritone horns "cuivré" at 9:25. Long time ago, though.

Anyway, hope that you, Yoshi, find what you're looking for. But I need to get back to my practice as it's band tomorrow.

[2ba4t]

I am with Timothy42ba on this. Material makes not a scintilla of difference despite what everyone insists. The science is clear. Yes, it resonates but that does not affect the sound waves travelling up and down the inside of the tube.I copy in below a mail I sent to a mouthpiece maker. Obviously there was no reply.

Research it - "The effect of material in brass instruments a review, Proceedings of the Institute of Acoustics 8, 91-96 (1986) (R. Smith) If he has changed the link just research the author, probably the most brilliant instrument designer B & H ever had.

BULK/MASS:
Innumerable studies have proven scientifically that, yes, the body of an instrument vibrates, but that this does not in any way change the sound quality. Nor do types of brass alloy, copper, silver or gold. Blindfolded players again and again and again cannot tell the difference – except the pure weight in their hands. Sound is affected by length, bore, degree of expansion, bell, mouthpiece, mouthpipe and that player’s specific way of doing it. Nothing else. Period. See "The effect of material in brass instruments a review, Proceedings of the Institute of Acoustics 8, 91-96 (1986) (R. Smith)" https://www.smithwatkins.com/administra ... A-1986.pdf"

[2ba4t]

May I add the current link https://www.smithwatkins.com/library/te ... apers.html

[timothy42b]

I am with Timothy42ba on this. Material makes not a scintilla of difference despite what everyone insists. The science is clear.
[/color]

We don't need science, we have the pBone.
( a dirt cheap piece of plastic that is mistaken for brass in blind listening tests)

The science actually says "if the walls are sufficiently thick" the material doesn't matter. There's a little bit of vagueness over "sufficiently." But clearly of all instruments the tuba has thick enough walls (and lowest amount of air pressure - got a leak 34 inches wide at the end of that tube.)

[GeoffC_UK]

A bumble bee shouldn't be able to fly

[Snake Charmer]

The science actually says "if the walls are sufficiently thick" the material doesn't matter. There's a little bit of vagueness over "sufficiently." But clearly of all instruments the tuba has thick enough walls (and lowest amount of air pressure - got a leak 34 inches wide at the end of that tube.)

The wall thickness does make a difference, so every modification of that factor may cause a difference in feel for the player. Most probably this difference cannot be heard from the audience. But this does not matter as long as it leads to a better performance.
Changing to some different plated tuning slides will affect the wall thickness of parts of the tuba. Only the tuning slides of a tuba cover a much smaller portion of the horn than those of a trumpet, so the difference in playing will be nearly indistinguishable. Just like every other trumpet trick as heavy valve caps, different waterkeys or lizard oil.
But if you like the look of different bling on your horn, do whatever you want. If you feel better you will play better!

[Yoshi]

But I need to get back to my practice as it's band tomorrow.

Hope your practice went well! I checked, but couldn't find a thread on tuning slides, so that is why I started this.

...if you like the look of different bling on your horn, do whatever you want. If you feel better you will play better!

Right, some people change them for how it looks. And, it is true that if we feel better, we may play better.

I got a quote that says that it will cost more than 10,000 USD (I am not joking) to purchase a new set of gold-plated tuning slides (you can almost buy a new one [the whole instrument in lacquer] with that much money)! A quote was given by the maker of the instrument, and the person at the shop was in a shock too...

So, I may postpone until price of gold goes down a bit...and even price goes down a bit later, I do not want spend that much if all it does is bring different bling, haha (if "difference in playing will be nearly indistinguishable").

...a tuba makes sound by resonance within an air column, not the brass structure. How much coupling there is between the two is a matter of debate, but it must be vanishingly small.

Material makes not a scintilla of difference despite what everyone insists.

Thank you for a link to an interesting paper! I wonder if anyone else has done a similar study in recent years.

[Matt Walters]

You never get to compare just the material differences.

1) The crooks have to be sanded and buffed leading to different wall thicknesses.
2) The ends of the crook can have more or less burs from the cutoff process.
3) The ends of the slide tubes can have more or less burs from the cutoff process.
4) There can be more or less gap inside the ferrules between the crook ends and the slide tubing.
5) There can be more or less solder (though still clean) in the joints.
6) There can be more or less solder blobs inside the tubes/ferrules.
7) There can be subtle difference in spread of the slide causing more or less sound deadening tension.

[timothy42b]

Thank you for a link to an interesting paper! I wonder if anyone else has done a similar study in recent years.

My impression is that they haven't.
Apparently a lot of physicists play flute, and a few violin. Very few brass, and maybe none tuba!
So that tends to affect what they are interested in doing research on.

The consistent finding on all of the research is that the more rigorous you make the experiment, eliminating other factors like Matt mentioned, the more any effect tends to disappear.

[Yoshi]

You never get to compare just the material differences.

Come to think of it, that is true, and interesting point. Just as each instrument and mouthpiece are all slightly different (even the same model), I suppose, so are instrument parts.

And, may be, that is what makes music fun and interesting...I think, if everyone sounds exactly the same, it is not that fun...as I digressed.

Trying to summarize points made so far...
* If one is willing to invest in changing tuning slides (with different plating), I suppose one can try and see how it turns out (certainly will bring a different bling).

* But, views are divided on whether it will have any significant changes in musically meaningful ways (e.g., sound, response, etc). There is, at least, one study that says no. Even among those who take a stance that it may have some impacts, a bell may be better choice, as tuning slides are small portion of the whole - in case of a big instrument like tuba.

* Whichever the case may be, if we feel better by doing it, may be we will play better!?

[Snake Charmer]

You can work on your best level when you are happy with your tool.

In the case of brass instruments and influence of material etc for playing it is impossible to make correct scientific studies. You would have to modify a set of horns in always the same way and measure some results. But for that you would need a playing which is 100% consistent. No human player can do this and a proper playing apparatus has still to be invented (NO NO NO, nobody needs this!). So this studies will consume a lot of time and money for minimal results. And afterwards the brass player world will still buy their horns after personal taste and will dicuss the benefits of material, surface treatment or funny engraving.

[TubaBeage]

Like most people on here if one rather spent the time practicing one would most likely notice a much greater improvement in ones sound than Totally Tangential Tuba Theory can provide, although one day I will find that Golden Horn on which I can play anything without practice, I know it's out there somewhere. Then I will just need to locate that perfect mouthpiece, upgrade the lead pipe and get the bell flare hand hammered after I've had the valves square bored and super heavyweight caps fitted which match the new Depleted Uranium Kranz Ring.

[Yoshi]

...So this studies will consume a lot of time and money for minimal results. And afterwards the brass player world will still buy their horns after personal taste and will dicuss the benefits of material, surface treatment or funny engraving.

Perhaps, people have different way to approach and enjoy music

We can always learn something from other people, and I am grateful for everyone who took their time to write comments on this thread.

...one day I will find that Golden Horn on which I can play anything without practice...

Lucky me, not so long ago, I was able to find both bass and contrabass tubas (& matching mouthpieces also) which I want to use for many years to come. So, fortunately, I am relieved from that part of the quest, at least - that is, looking for a magical tuba!? If I do not sound good on my tubas, it is probably because of me, hahaha. Good luck and enjoy your journey!