Saturn H2O key - does it do more than just drain water?

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barry grrr-ero
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Saturn H2O key - does it do more than just drain water?

Post by barry grrr-ero »

A very prominent, big-name player in the tuba world has told me that the Saturn Water Key smooths out the scale on rotary valve tubas, and will make slurring easier in the process. I've talked to three high respected tuba technicians, and they are quite skeptical. After all, we've all been through such stuff as putting your BAT in a deep freeze (cryogenics), and using bits of extraneous metal to bridge your mouthpiece shank and receiver, etc., etc. The heavy valve cap thing is still popular. Sooooooooo . . .

I would like to get input from people who have ACTUALLY PUT a Saturn water key or two, on to their ROTARY valve tuba (and removed the standard one). Do you notice any improvement or change in how you're tuba plays? . . .

Here's the thing. On my rotary "Neptune", the standard water key is on the MTS at a point where I have to tip the tuba over at a somewhat severe angle. I'm thinking of having that water key removed and patched over, and having a Saturn key placed closer to the true bottom of the MTS. How difficult (or not) is it to patch over a water key hole? . . . Does it make sense for me to place the Saturn water key more towards the bottom of the bow, so less or zero tipping of the tuba is necessary? . . . Lastly, I have to turn the tuba round and round at the end of the night, to get water out of one of the bottom bows that doesn't have a water key. Would it make sense for me to figure which bow(s) is collecting water, and have a Saturn key placed there also? . . . I'm old, and the constant turning 'thang' on a heavy BAT is not so good for me.

OK, if you're a tech and you're still with me - and if you're interested in doing the work - please raise your hand if you'd like to do the job. I could ship the MTS to you, but I would need a fairly fast turn-around. The job would be to remove and patch over the existing water key, and adding a Saturn key somewhere more towards the bottom of the bow (on the MTS).

Thank you in advance.

Barry Guerrero

B&S rotary Neptune CC
four different mouthpieces for various moods and hours of the day (the main one being a Wick "Heritage" 2.5 CC)
(older) Wessex F cimbasso with valves that are a pain
Wick "Heritage" 3SL ("S" for shallow)
Last edited by barry grrr-ero on Fri Nov 18, 2022 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Saturn H2O key - does it do more than just drain water?

Post by circusboy »

I have no answers, but I have the same questions. Thanks for asking them.
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Re: Saturn H2O key - does it do more than just drain water?

Post by MKTuba »

My understanding is that a saturn key results in less resistance, and makes the inner tubing of the instrument more consistent throughout. Regular spit valves have small protrusions in to the inner wall of the tube, whereas saturn keys are supposed to be flush, making it so that you can't really feel a spit valve being there at all.

Brass instruments have what are called Nodal points, and my understanding is that these are specific locations on the instrument where specific pitches (such as C3 or something) vibrate from. If you happen to have a spit valve or dent where one of these nodal points is located then that specific pitch may end up being a "dead note" on the instrument. If you have ever had an instrument where there was one individual note that just wouldn't center, it is likely because the corresponding nodal point had some interference. On my old Mack Brass 410 CC, the E4 (the high E in the gregson concerto) was like this. I spent countless hours trying to center this note, and I could never quite get it right. I could play the half step above and below, and this was about a perfect fifth away from the top of my range so it wasn't that I just didn't have the chops to hit it. If I had taken this tuba to someone who knew a lot about nodal points, and how to measure them, there is a chance that I could have gotten this issue resolved.

As for the idea that these saturn keys could make a rotor tuba slur easier, I have no idea. I think there is a possibility that it could, but honestly i'm not so sure that most people could genuinely tell the difference. At some level all changes made to an instrument will effect the sound: heavy valve caps, lefreque plates, etc, but whether or not the player can truly perceive these is a different story. I am more of the camp that unless there is something legitimately prohibitive about the instrument you play (such as the E4 on my 410, or that trumpet floating around that had a 6th partial that was a half step too high) then any changes you make regarding equipment, while potentially making things easier for you, really should not be a substitute for working towards improving upon that specific deficiency.

I do appreciate the idea of using physics to make the instrument better, and if you are primarily trying to make the water drain process a little easier on you I can respect that, but don't expect the smoothness of your connections to be healed by changing out the water keys on your tuba. Cheers!
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Re: Saturn H2O key - does it do more than just drain water?

Post by barry grrr-ero »

I appreciate your comments, and nobody in their right would say that a water key is a substitute for practicing. I'm also well aware of nodal points. What I'm still hoping for is input from people who have actually installed and use Saturn H2O keys. Thank you though.
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Re: Saturn H2O key - does it do more than just drain water?

Post by GeoffC_UK »

I have Saturn's fitted all around. Old levers removed entirely.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271004277835
3 x pistons and 1 x rotary on horn.
Noticeable benefits:
- Spittle exits vertically/freely and doesn't spray everywhere;
- Quick op to expel water;
- Less leakage than from a key.
- Easy to fit, not that expensive to buy/plate;
- Looks neater.
Drawbacks:
- Ball can stick open occasionally;
- Spares??
Last edited by GeoffC_UK on Tue Dec 06, 2022 3:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Saturn H2O key - does it do more than just drain water?

Post by timothy42b »

Saturn H2O key - does it do more than just drain water?
I don't have a Saturn but I do have an Amado. It not only doesn't do more than drain water, it doesn't even drain water very well.
I've heard Saturns are much better, hope so.
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Re: Saturn H2O key - does it do more than just drain water?

Post by Sousaswag »

I’ve also heard this from (I think) the same person. I’ve got a MRP rotary C with the water key also in the worst place it could be in. I never use it- I just pull the whole slide out and dump it every time. I’d also be curious to just have one installed. I did find that harder bumpers made my slurring much smoother than the gummy ones I had on there.

Compared to my piston instrument, slurring is harder with rotors, but I’m skeptical of this sort of gimmicky stuff.
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Re: Saturn H2O key - does it do more than just drain water?

Post by barry grrr-ero »

My Neptune has a long tuning rod (with a T bar handle) on he MTS. I'd have to unscrew it manually to remove the MTS. I actually prefer it this way, because I would live in constant terror of the MTS falling out and hitting the floor - especially since I tend to blow a tad sharp anyway, and don't like having my low register notes be sharp in the slightest (to pitch, or just a tiny bit low). Hence, I usually have my MTS out farther than most people do. I pull the tuning rod in for some notes, and for most of the upper mid register notes. I'm also skeptical of 'gimmicky' stuff, which is why I posed the question to owners. Thank you for your input.
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Re: Saturn H2O key - does it do more than just drain water?

Post by Logh.Brass »

I just think mine looks cool tbh. However I hold my horn at like a funny angle so it doesn’t line up with my saturn key. I guess if I just had a longer torso this wouldn’t be a problem for me but whatever. It doesn’t leak, that’s what matters.
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Re: Saturn H2O key - does it do more than just drain water?

Post by royjohn »

MKtuba,
I've had trouble with the second ledger line E on my Mack 410, too. I don't find it dead, just hard to hit. That is close to the top of my range, but I can get the Eb and the F a whole lot easier than that E. Nice to hear that perhaps it isn't me.
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Re: Saturn H2O key - does it do more than just drain water?

Post by MKTuba »

I’ve heard multiple people say that their Miraphone 186 copy was like that. I have heard that from people that owned both the Mack and the Wessex.
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Re: Saturn H2O key - does it do more than just drain water?

Post by royjohn »

When I played euphonium, there was some discussion about a dent on one of the valve slides...on a Besson, I think...that cured a wayward pitch. If you knew where to make the small dent on the elbow coming out of the valve, you could cure that intonation fault. I can't remember which note or which vallve, tho'...surely someone here has heard of this.

Anyway, this has often led me to thinking about finding nodes on my Piggy and maybe putting lead tape or something at the nodes to see whether that would help anything...with alll the crazy stuff that people do to trumpets, I'm surprised that you don't hear much about similar things on tubas...
royjohn
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