brass instrument pitch

[Rick Denney]

My observation of middle-school band teaching methods seems to tie fingering to notation with key signatures just representing a form of persistent accidental. While it may get students going quickly, it's a lousy way of teaching first principles of music and will ultimately prove a hindrance later on.

Maybe. But my niece, now a junior in music performance at Ohio State, can transpose at will now. But she learned music just the way you describe, and starting in the seventh grade (at age 12). She had not learned to transpose when she went to college, but she can now. Is it because of effort? I don't think that's all of it. I'm quite sure I have spent more time learning to play F tuba in addition to BBb than she has spend learning that one transposition plus all the other keys.

In another example, I can transpose octaves easily by thinking of the tuba as a euphonium. It makes it easy for me to read string bass parts. But here's the kicker: I can't do it on F tuba. Don't ask me why, but I think it's because I learned to play baritone and valve trombone at various times and I have a certain fluency there, but never learned to do so with F tuba. It would be something I'd have to devote considerable time to--nothing natural at all about it. Fact is, I'm used to playing stuff written in the string bass notational range as written on F tuba, and the mental process of moving that down an octave tangles me up. On Bb tuba, it's not a problem at all.

As to those who think transposing should violate our sense of pitch, I wouls say that when I see a note written for string bass, I hear it down an octave when I play Bb tuba, as written when playing a euphonium, and as written when playing an F tuba. I learned those specifically as separate instruments, and I don't transpose the pitch. When I play a C tuba, I get hopeless tangled up, because the fingered and read note is just too close to the pitch I expect, and the instrument feels to my hands like a Bb tuba. I'm convinced that for old folks, adding C to a Bb capability is harder than adding Eb or F.

There are people who can transpose any given interval, and those who can define any arbitrary clef just by knowing where to put the C. I admire them, but I can't do either.

Rick "who flips a brain switch when changing instruments--a switch that is hardwired and not programmable" Denney

[Leland]

Because I knew fingerings in treble clef, I was able to test out an Eb tuba in quintet rehearsal with surprisingly few reading errors.

Never played Eb tuba before in my life, either. It was just because I was able to read "Eb tuba on bass clef" like the typical treble clef fingering pattern.

[Donn]

I remember reacting with horror when a tuba player next to me said that the way he read music was that first line was 12, first space was 2, etc. For him, the process of translating a written pitch to a note name was something like "second space is 1 and that particular 1 is C". I can't imagine the contortions that he'd have to go through to sing moveable-do solfege.

Sounds like me! And I will concede that I rarely perform "moveable-do solfege", whatever that is. I did start reading music as a singer, though, so the names of notes were not per se very interesting. OK, it's a C -- what next? "C" doesn't tell me how to sing it. Later with instruments I still was relatively rarely called upon to play notes by name.

I'm at best a mediocre reader, but I've always attributed it to being slow witted in general. I can read Bb, Eb and F tuba parts, Bb saxophone including bass clef concert pitch, bass clarinet ditto, string bass, a little bassoon, recorders, etc., so whatever liabilities my reading model has, it doesn't seem particularly injurious to transposing.

Speaking of tubas, though, is it common for F to be noticeably harder than Eb? I'm guessing it's just because for me F came after Eb and they're rather close together. I get little sympathy from the household alto horn player, though, who has to go back and forth between music transposed for these two keys, on the same Eb horn. There's the flaw in this scheme -- "Billy, we ain't got no alto horn part for this one, here, take this French horn part! ... Jeez that sounds awful, you sure you're playing the right notes?"

Also, I'd be interested in your opinions on which keys are easier to play, for which instruments. The obvious answer would be "CC tuba is easier for C, G, D, E etc., BBb is easier for Bb, Eb, Ab, etc.", but note that a BBb tuba is more specifically a Bb/F/Bb/D/F/Bb/etc. tuba, isn't it? so it's going to favor a sharper range of keys than you'd think from the name. According to this theory, the answer to "why Bb" might be that, for brass instruments, it's the most versatile.

[ThomasDodd]

Never played Eb tuba before in my life, either. It was just because I was able to read "Eb tuba on bass clef" like the typical treble clef fingering pattern.

It didn't give you fit, seeing a note that was played open, thought of as a C, expected to sound Bb, but instead sounding Eb?

I do OK with Bb treble clef (aka trumpet) parts thinking of the written C as a Bb (it just written wrong). But That would screw me up on an Eb horn. I'd constantly play the wrong partial, Much like what happend with the GG horn playing patrs in Bb treble clef (as far as the fingers go, written C=open, Bb=1). Luckily I don't play much trumpet music on a tuba, so seeing a written C became a G in my ears quickly. Trying to play the same part on a Bb horn messed up the pitch in my head, and became a real mess.

[ThomasDodd]

"Billy, we ain't got no alto horn part for this one, here, take this French horn part! ... Jeez that sounds awful, you sure you're playing the right notes?"

It's a French horn part, you supposed to miss lots of notes. Then it'll sound correct.

Also, I'd be interested in your opinions on which keys are easier to play, for which instruments.

I find no difference in playing a given key that is not du to lack of practice. Most of the stuff I've ever played was Bb, Eb, and Ab. So even the ocasion F, C, Dd, or Gb gives me fits. If I bothered to practice scales, and play pieces in the other keys I have no trouble.

For me, On a Bb horn, Eb is easiest though. I tend to play Ab instead of A when in Bb, and playing E instead of Eb is a pain anywhere. But it all because of (the lack of) practice.

[Chuck(G)]

Sounds like me! And I will concede that I rarely perform "moveable-do solfege", whatever that is.

Solfege is the practice of assigning syllables, not letters, to musical pitches--surely you remember Julie Andrews singing "Do, a deer, a female deer". There are two systems in use--the French tend to use "fixed do" where for example, re is D, no matter what. "Moveable do" says that "do" corresponds to the tonic of whatever you're singing. So, if you're in Eb major, "do" is Eb.

If you think that playing CC tuba and F tuba is "transposing", consider the plight of the piano accompanist, who must be able to transpose whatever is being played by any arbitrary interval to match the whim of the singer. (Remember the Gerald Moore quip about "have you nothing in between?"). Or consider the orchestra horn player who has to deal with scores labeled "Horn in <fill in a key>", including bizarre variations, such as "Horn in H basso".

[Rick Denney]

If you think that playing CC tuba and F tuba is "transposing", consider the plight of the piano accompanist, who must be able to transpose whatever is being played by any arbitrary interval to match the whim of the singer.

Every time I sit down to a piano, I demonstrate the difference between me and an incompetent piano player, let alone one who can transpose at will.

But I submit that for every pro accompanist who can transpose to any arbitrary key, there are hundreds or thousands of amateurs who can read piano music passably well, and tens of thousands who can while away the hours for their own satisfaction using the music as a guide (or not). As for me, I can either think about my right hand or my left hand, but not both.

Solfege would be very good for me, but not because it would help with transposition. Rather, it would help with hearing the music in my head, which I can do on the tuba better than singing.

Rick "on the wrong tail of the distribution" Denney

[windshieldbug]

The first tuba I learned was an Eb, so it was just like Bb trumpet treble clef read revising the key signature and disregarding the bass clef. The next tuba was CC, so it was bass clef with the fingerings the way god intended from Bb treble. F, for me, was transposed Eb until I got it down. So for whatever reason Bb and Eb treble clef came about, they were sure handy for me...

[Chuck(G)]

But I submit that for every pro accompanist who can transpose to any arbitrary key, there are hundreds or thousands of amateurs who can read piano music passably well, and tens of thousands who can while away the hours for their own satisfaction using the music as a guide (or not). As for me, I can either think about my right hand or my left hand, but not both.

Rick, what's your point? That there are any number of mediocre pianists for every really competent one? No argument--that can be said about any instrument, including voice.

My whole point was that facility is grounded in basic thought patterns; the first principles, the "ground of being", as it were.

Is it necessary to be able to read music to play an instrument musically? Of course not! And many of those play-by-ear musically dyslexic performers are far better grounded in musical performance than many a DMA candidate. Many of the former group have first principles better developed; they may not include reading music, but they do include making music. I'm sure you've run into a few--explain to them how an instrument works and inside of 15 mintues, they'll be improvising melodies on it.

I liken the teaching of music as "first line is 12" to what I call "cookbook math" or "cookbook engineering". Got this problem? Easy--just plug in this method and you're done. Why? Don't bother your pretty head about the "why"; just be satisfied that it works--until it doesn't.

Some folks manage to get past this stage, but many don't.

It seems as if your niece has been able to overcome her initial instruction and develop her own set of useful first principles. The longer you rely on the "12 is first line" approach, the harder it is to develop a model that can be built upon.

[Leland]

Never played Eb tuba before in my life, either. It was just because I was able to read "Eb tuba on bass clef" like the typical treble clef fingering pattern.

It didn't give you fit, seeing a note that was played open, thought of as a C, expected to sound Bb, but instead sounding Eb?

For me, it was different -- I was kinda expecting to hear a concert G (corps style) while looking at "C". But, I had to concentrate pretty intensely anyway and just ignore any preconceived ideas of what I should be hearing.

*edit* And, now that I think about it, the second line pitch -- being played open -- also played the correct pitch, a Bb. That was one of the notes I would base things off of (or is it, "off of which I would base things"..).
[/edit]

I do have a hell of a time trying to read bass clef on G contra, though. Some writers use C tuba fingerings, some use BBb fingerings, and some do it in concert pitch. Pretty dumb, really; G bugles should just stay in treble clef.

[MaryAnn]

...and frankly my dear I don't see the difference. It appears to be a matter of attitude rather than ability.

Maybe you aren't seeing enough. Some people have an aptitude for certain kinds of arithmetic transformations and abstractions in real time, and others don't. Those who pick up instruments that require lots of those transformations, such as horn, who have no aptitude for it often end up playing other instruments or quitting music performance altogether.

I agree completely that horn players need a mental flexibility that players of other instruments generally do not. However, I'm not talking about someone taking up horn; I'm talking about someone who plays BBb tuba bass clef being totally unwilling to write in fingerings for a while until they "get" the clef. Not 47 clefs, just one, over time.

It took me quite a long time to learn F tuba. It was not just a matter of "picking it up", and it was a solid year before I was comfortable with the instrument. I had to treat it like a different instrument altogether before I could make headway--if I tried to make a transformation of what I already knew, I could not keep up with the music. It was difficult enough for me that while I'm proud that I actually accomplished it, I feel little motivation to go through it again.

Some of us are just slow about some things.

I have a piece in brass band right now that is requiring F tuba; also my quintet just asked me to play the F because they like the sound better than the C. I am falling all over myself with fingerings, leaving notes out, having "brain gaps" because I haven't played F tuba in so long. My mind sees "tuba part" and it thinks "C fingerings." But....I'm willing to keep scrambling, and maybe (again!) write in some fingerings for a while or on certain parts, or (gasp!) practice those parts until I'm not brain-gapping any more. Then....maybe if I play F exclusively for a while, I'll have exactly the same problem with C tuba. I think I'm talking more about effort than ability, really. Some people, the ones I'm complaining about, are unwilling to put in *any* effort to learn something new. I just don't understand the mindset.

On the other hand, there are abstractions I can see clearly that absolutely baffle other people, and I have learned not to think them stupid or lazy because they can't keep up on those topics without a lot of extra work.

I'm sorry if I came across as implying that people are lazy or stupid; I just don't understand a mindset that wants everything to be the way it always was, and which doesn't want to learn anything. I do notice that the two horn players on the tubenet have more or less the same attitude about it, which does play into what you said about innate abilities.

It's a little like skinny people thinking fat people are too lazy to exercise and eat well (which, by extension, is like saying that skinny people are skinny because they are not too lazy to exercise and eat well, and we all know skinny people who eat horribly and sit on the couch all day). Sometimes it's true but not always. It's easy to be complacent about our gifts, but we should admire rather than complain about those who, despite NOT having those gifts, work very hard to achieve some level of ability, usually doing so in addition to the work they do where they really are gifted (and thus able to support themselves doing it).

I seem to have hit a nerve here. Perhaps I am too arrogant about some things. (being one of those skinny people who does not have to work at it, but who does have to spend a considerable portion of my income simply to stay functional because of the inability of allopathic medicine do do anything but make me worse over time. I would love to be both fatter and more robust at the same time.)

Perhaps the definition of "gifted" is the built-in desire and motivation to devote the learning time, but if that is true, I have this feeling that the vast majority of folks put in that time young in life when learning new abstractions is easier. Those people I know who say that it's all about clefs and if we would just understand clefs it would all be easy, crossed those bridges in their music education at about age 20 or before. I was learning calculus and physics at that age, heh, heh.

Rick "who still had trouble with calculus" Denney

Well, yes I knew two clefs before age 20; treble and bass. My first instrument was piano. Second, violin. I did do some composing for orchestra in high school, and had to learn how to write the various parts in the proper clefs. So, yes, exposure was in high school. But....I didn't do calculus until I was in my 30's, with the rest of my engineering education. I had to work my butt off. And I realize I'll never have the facility with math and engineering concepts, particularly electronics, that people who grew up tinkering with that kind of thing have. I'm slow at figuring out what to do to get that light fixture to fit on the ancient receptacle in the bathroom, but I eventually get there. It might take me 100 times longer than someone who has seen stuff like that all his life, but I keep working at it.

MA, who thinks "gifted" may have a subset of "stubborn"

[MaryAnn]

As to those who think transposing should violate our sense of pitch, I wouls say that when I see a note written for string bass, I hear it down an octave when I play Bb tuba, as written when playing a euphonium, and as written when playing an F tuba. I learned those specifically as separate instruments, and I don't transpose the pitch.
There are people who can transpose any given interval, and those who can define any arbitrary clef just by knowing where to put the C. I admire them, but I can't do either.

Rick "who flips a brain switch when changing instruments--a switch that is hardwired and not programmable" Denney

Guess what, Rick? What you describe above, is exactly how I "transpose." I hear different notes depending on what clef and / or instrument I'm playing. You're not even slightly off the mark; I think it's "impossible" to always play, for example, a 4th above the concert pitch, note by note. If someone can do that, my hat is off to them, because they have a brain that is way, way, ahead of mine, sort of like those simultaneous translators you hear with political speeches.

If I'm playing horn and the part is in F, I hear the notes in my head a fifth down from where they would sound if I were playing violin. What I do that is different from most, is I also change the names to their concert pitch names. But the rest of the process is the same. Because of my pitch, I know what sound will come out of an instrument given a fingering and embouchure set, and that has to match the note on the page. It is "sort of" the moveable Do that you speak of, but the only difference between what I hear you describing and "compleat moveable Do" is that you only move it a few places to match the instruments you know how to play, instead of "everywhere." I don't do it "everywhere" either but play more instruments than you do, so my "Do" can move a few more places than yours.

MA

[Rick Denney]

Rick, what's your point?

That some abstractions are easy for some to see and hard for others on the basis of talent and not on the basis of whatever learning method they were subjected to. I didn't disagree that some learning methods work better than others, especially if applied early. I disagreed that this accounts for the result that some get it and go on to fluency, while others struggle with it and never achieve fluency.

Rick "who believes the existence of genetic predispositions" Denney

[Chuck(G)]

Rick "who believes the existence of genetic predispositions" Denney

Only sometimes do such folks ever go on to realize their full potential (note that I'm not admitting to a genetic predisposition thing--it might be just an effect of early environmental conditions). In my experience, a lot of these same folks haven't developed study habits that will get them to the highest level.

Give me someone without a "genetic predisposition" (if there is such a thing) who's willing to work hard any day.

[Leland]

Only sometimes do such folks ever go on to realize their full potential (note that I'm not admitting to a genetic predisposition thing--it might be just an effect of early environmental conditions). In my experience, a lot of these same folks haven't developed study habits that will get them to the highest level.

I think that's true -- because many things come so easily to me, my study habits are terrible.

Seriously... I never made flash cards, I never put index tabs in textbooks, none of that stuff. I would make a pretty poor tutor.

[Chuck(G)]

I'll amend my comment about "genetic predisposition" to exclude certain types of savantism, autism, etc.

I once knew a fellow who worked as a part-time pastry chef who had an incredible eye for modern art--he'd describe a painting to me in terms that were totally alien to me. His acquisitions were borrowed by museums for collections.

But he was also a basket case mentally. Totally dysfunctional socially; he occasionally got lost coming home from work and would call his roomate for help.

Clearly there was something different about his brain wiring from most of us, but that didn't make me envy him one bit.

[Lew]

Rick "who believes the existence of genetic predispositions" Denney

Only sometimes do such folks ever go on to realize their full potential (note that I'm not admitting to a genetic predisposition thing--it might be just an effect of early environmental conditions). In my experience, a lot of these same folks haven't developed study habits that will get them to the highest level.

Give me someone without a "genetic predisposition" (if there is such a thing) who's willing to work hard any day.

Aahhh, the old nature vs. nurture discussion. Nobody has totally answered this, but studies on identical twins have shown that there are some traits that appear to be genetically determined.

Of course, you have to take advantage of what you have. Hard work can trump natural ability. However, someone with great genetics who works as hard as someone without will do better, everything else being equal.

[MaryAnn]

I fall on the side of "Nature AND Nurture."

My older sister was tone deaf; she had to be taught to carry a tune, and then it was off enough that we musicians would be writing it down in quarter tones.

When I was born, in basically the same environment, but with perhaps a little less attention because there were two kids instead of one....I sang on pitch and was playing tunes on the piano by ear by the time I was three.

Now, that is "Nature." The nurture part....we both got music lessons; she got nowhere fast and went on to other things. What I did is obvious. Now, if I hadn't had the lessons...I'd probably play guitar or something with wrong technique, learned in my 20's probably. Since my school didn't have a music program, I wouldn't have gotten the music instruction without the private lessons.

MA, who says "ya gots ta have both"