Contra BTB

[rascaljim]

I know this is tubenet and not trombonet, but I was wondering what you working musicians think about adding Contrabass Trombone to your list of instruments?

I currently have two great horns and a third I'm in the process of selling. When I free up the equity, I was considering trying to find a 6/4 to add to my tools, but I started thinking about the fact that I don't 100% need a 6/4 tuba. I spoke with my teacher at Roosevelt and he is of the opinion that I probably won't benefit as much, as a tuba player making his way onto the orchestral track, from a Contra or prehaps a Cimbasso as I would a BAT. Of course, I trust and respect my teachers knowlege but I know that there are other opinions from people with different sorts of experience.

Interested in your thoughts and opinions.
Jim Langenberg

[james]

Jim,
Thought I would chime in for this one with some humble observations. My very limited experience with areas known for Tuba/Trombone doublers (mainly LA and NY) seems to always be tuba and regular bass trombone. Consider how little contrabass trombone is actually used in the music world anyway. Even bass trombone players themselves play it rarely. The Ring Cycle is the only thing that comes to mind and this part is almost 100% played by the regular bass trombonist in the opera/orchestra. I would think it would be like buying a high priced euphonium to play the parts in Don Quixote and Heldenleben although chances are you'll never play these parts.
Cimbasso seems to once again be exclusive to film scores in LA and a small number of Opera parts where the conductor may not know the difference anyway and will never be required at an audition if it were my guess.
My question would be, what do you ultimately want to do? If play in an orchestra is the answer, then a bass trombone double would be somewhat pointless. If freelance and play shows is your answer, then I would think taking up the bass trombone as well as the electric bass would be pretty wise. All in all, these instruments will be asked for at an audition once in a blue moon (if ever) so unless you will use them in heavy duty freelance work they seem to be fairly secondary to paying off some debt/putting money in savings.
I believe your situation is why so many pro players suggest getting a good sized/large 5/4 CC and a medium/large F because of the versatility. Very few orchestras truly "need" a large 6/4 instrument anyway. (And I mean "need" in that you would not be heard without one.) Name 1. Now name 1 that will have an opening in the next 15 years. Hmmm. Al Baer uses a large 5/4 in NY and that may be the loudest brass section I've heard. They put out so much sound and Al seems to handle it just fine with his Gronitz (haven't heard him on the Miraphone). I believe the whole idea behind a 6/4 BAT is for the "ease" at which you can put out a lot of sound rather than actually "needing" a bigger sound. Sorry to ramble....just my 2 cents.
-james

[Tom Mason]

I agree that a contrabass trombone is not on top of a need list for many players.

I have fought the temptation twice to buy a contra. Every time I try one out, I come to the conclusion that they are too stuffy and awkward to handle. Secondly, the times I have ran into a contra part, I have played it on bass bone.

The only time I could have used the range of a contra was to get a real BBb instead of a pedal BBb for blending the sound in a section. In that case, I simply play BBb in 6 ish position with both triggers on my bass trombone.

I am sure that there are some good contras out there, I just can't justify the money.

Tom Mason

[cjk]

I thought the "purpose" of most 6/4 instruments is to be cool like Arnold Jacobs.

[james]

After hearing Al Baer play live a few times, I would say his sound is far from "tubby". I stated that the appeal of a 6/4 is the "ease" of putting out a lot of sound. If you want to call it "weight" or depth" or "fundamental" or whatever, sure. All of these are still part of the sound and there is naturally more of it with a large 6/4 tuba. I would agree that it's not a one size fits all and this was not what I was implying. However, Jim was the one who questioned his need for a 6/4 instrument. I was just agreeing with his doubts. Should one pay possibly $16,000 or more for a tuba they may never need? Or $5,000 or more on a contrabass trombone? Where I come from, this is a lot of money.

[ArnoldGottlieb]

I would agree with everything "James" said, and in fact could have written it myself. Unless of course one's only goal is to be a tuba player in an orchestra, and one is willing to do "whatever it takes" to acheive that goal. In the freelance world, bass trombone is almost a requirement, and, gets one into stuff that one would never get to play on the big horn thereby forcing one to learn new things. Of course, listening to one's teacher is often good advice. Peace. ASG

[Mudman]

Contra = not worth the investment.

Thein makes amazing F contrabass trombones. If you have around 10,000 USD to throw around, go for it.

Bass trombonists rarely (if ever) need to play contra.

If a local opera company has enough money to put on The Ring cycle, chances are they already have a professional bass trombonist picked to cover the contra book.

Doubling tuba, bass bone, and electric bass would be a good combination that may lead to some gigs.

[rascaljim]

As far as the 6/4 tuba goes. I'm still looking and will hopefully find one in the relatively near future. I do have uses for it. The hall that we use in Dubuque kinda sucks and no matter how much the low brass pumps out it never seems to be enough. It's an old opera theater and it's speculated it wasn't designed by someone who had mastered acustics.

The idea of looking at other options was to see if prehaps there might be a better use of funds for expanding my selection of instruments outside of the tuba family as opposed to inside. My 2000 will probably be my main axe for quite some time but it's nice to have options.

Thanks for your posts the were helpful to my perspective.
Jim Langenberg

[Dan Satterwhite]

[/quote]Bob Jones The former Bass Trombonist in the Royal Scottish National Orchestra whos name escapes me at the moment.[quote]

That's Bob Hughes, now of the London Symphony. He gets that sound on what, in the US, is considered by many to be commercial, big band equipment. Conn 62H and a Bach 1 1/2 or 2G.

None of the people you list, even Charlie Vernon, sound like a well-played contra on their bass trombones. You should, however, hear Charlie play his contra. THAT is huge!

[Dan Satterwhite]

I own and have enjoyed both of those recordings...and they sound to me like really great bass trombone playing...not contra. Sounding fabulous and sounding like a contra are not the same thing...unless you're a fabulous contra player!

I don't know of any commercial recordings available with Charlie playing contra. However, besides several times hearing him practice contra, I heard him play it in the CSO brass ensemble concert for Herseth's retirement. Friedman's arrangement of the entire Alpensinfonie. Amazing.