Why make things complicated

[Kevin Hendrick]

Interesting article -- thanks, Chuck!

[NickJones]

All I need is a well made instrument which is reliable , and I don't have to worry if I have expensive rotors , extra valves or slides which are easily damaged .
Maybe as I have been brought up playing Miraphone ( British and Continental Eb's, Besson , Yamaha and Conn tubas , I prefer the simplicity of a compensating British Style tuba ) , myself I have a damaged tendon in my right hand causing my little finger to be in a clenched position all the time) , and playing a 5 valve instrument would cause playing problems.
at the moment , I play on a 5 year old Besson Sov 982 (modified by Besson with a 981 leadpipe ) , and a 1994 Besson Sov Bb , quite lucky that both instruments are free blowing and not stuffy , If these instruments are good enough for James Goulay and many pro's , they suit my needs.
I have also looked and played a Besson 980 (17inch), smaller bell than a normal sov but mega in the lower register.
this year I will have to try other instruments ( continental type) to see what I am missing.

[iiipopes]

One might say that tuning is a passion with Dr. Young and he has a great deal to offer.

For example, consider this paper on tuning that he did over 7 years ago:

http://www.tuba.com/e/tuning_a_tuba.htm

This paper, demonstrating the theoretical "perfection" of intonation (setting aside the usual flat harmonics, the usual sharp harmonics, and the quirks of assembly, age, wear, ergonomics [or lack thereof] etc.) is one of the reasons I chose a 3-valve comp, along with the fact my right pinky is over 3 cm shorter than my other fingers, and being left handed playing a right handed horn, my left hand would not subordinate to my right on combinations of a 3 + 1 horn. Finally, I play in community bands and lodge bands, and I have no need of anything below the 123 E natural, although I do occasionally pull my third slide to get a really good bottom of the trench last note Eb occasionally.

As bloke says, to each his own, and I do enjoy my Besson. Yes the valve block is complicated. But so is a modern Windows or Mac style computer, in order to make things such as this forum more user friendly, especially as compared to, say, the older version of this forum. Another example is a modern automobile with power and automatic everything, as opposed to a manual choke, manual transmission, crank to start or separate starter button, etc. When engineered properly, which for its purpose it is, the original Blaikley system does do a good job for band tubas.

[Daryl Fletcher]

Just seen the post on the monster tuba with 7 valves , I mean what is the point?

[Chuck(G)]

Just seen the post on the monster tuba with 7 valves , I mean what is the point?

I'd be willing to wager that each valve is attached to a reed, and one just "blows" and plays it like a harmonica. Probabl meant as a kids' toy.

[Daryl Fletcher]

Probabl meant as a kids' toy.

Probably so.

[windshieldbug]

Just seen the post on the monster tuba with 7 valves , I mean what is the point?

I'd be willing to wager that each valve is attached to a reed, and one just "blows" and plays it like a harmonica

... not too good for 12 tone music, either!

[jmh3412]

Yet more jibes at the English Tuba fraternity, and yet while most of the known universe is right handed our continental brethren persist in using left handed non compensating tubas!

While I might concede a small degree of sympathy with the charge of stuffiness (although this has never been a problem for me), I do feel that those of us who CHOOSE to play compensating instruments are unduly derfided by certain members of this forum.

What we lose in perceived "stuffiness" we gain back in accuracy and consistency. It is not a handicap to play this type of instrument, and I suspect that most English players would find it very difficult to change to a left handed rotary valve non compensating instrument!

[UDELBR]

... compensating instruments are unduly derfided by certain members of this forum.

Queen's English?

[iiipopes]

Yet more jibes at the English Tuba fraternity, and yet while most of the known universe is right handed our continental brethren persist in using left handed non compensating tubas!

While I might concede a small degree of sympathy with the charge of stuffiness (although this has never been a problem for me), I do feel that those of us who CHOOSE to play compensating instruments are unduly derfided by certain members of this forum.

What we lose in perceived "stuffiness" we gain back in accuracy and consistency. It is not a handicap to play this type of instrument, and I suspect that most English players would find it very difficult to change to a left handed rotary valve non compensating instrument!

I agree totally. And even though there may be a couple of "stuffy" notes, I get great compliments on the horn and the sound that can come out of it, even though it is rather beat up after its own 35 years of "tough love." (I did not say the sound I get out of it - I'm still working on that, even after 30 + years of brass playing). One local teacher who also is a low brass player said he wished the 3-valve comps were still being made so he could get some for his high school band, as they played in tune and are tough enough to take it, and compared the tone favorably to his MW.

[MaryAnn]

I don't have the breadth of experience playing all the various forms of tubas that you guys have, at least some of you. Three piston-valve Eb, 5-rotor F and 5-rotor CC.

Those of you with genetically short pinkies might want to take a look at rotary tubas....you can lengthen the paddle pretty easily to reach it, and it's a lot less stress on the hand than pistons, in my experience.

However....I really like the idea of having one valve per note; maybe because I'm an engineer, maybe because I played piano first, maybe because of ??.

I really like the possibilities for valve slide positions on my CC, which has the long major third 5th valve instead of the flat whole step. I have my slides set so that the cash register (between G below low C up to middle C) requires only one valve per note. Yes the open bugle is not completely in tune, and I end up having to lip some stuff, but the main tuning slide is not accessible. Maybe someday someone can show me how to better set it up, but to date, the open bugle is open, the notes below low C are played B-2, Bb-1, A-3, Ab-5, G-4; and similar patterns on up the scale, using the 5th valve for the usual 23 combos, and 3rd for the usual 12 combos. It gets a little messy with that really flat open E partial that I have to play 12 to get it in tune, but most of the rest of it works pretty well without slide pulling. I could probably get better resonance on some notes by fiddling with the main slide, but it is inaccessible so that is that.

As for left-handed valves, all horn players manage it, and all piano players manage it, and all string players manage it. It really just has to do with training, and admitedly training works better when the body is younger. When I was teaching piano and guitar, I worked out a practice method that I showed people, that allowed them to get the coordination about a zillion times faster than they would have....and it helped a lot of people.

I really liked the picture of the tuba-cordion; seeing all those valve paddles caused me to react exactly as I do when I see an accordion....like, how do they figure it out? How do they know where to go?

MA

[iiipopes]

I have looked into the rotary tubas, and into the lengthening of the paddles. The problem is that if you lengthen the paddles to reach your finger, you also deepen the depth of travel required to fully engage the rotor, trading one problem for another. In order to fully address the problem, a different geometry has to be set up, which would include either or both of raising the bracket on which the rotor pivot and spring are, and/or moving the pivot out with the paddle and putting a longer linkage on it. Either would require substantial cash to do properly and still have it look good on the horn. Thank you, I'll stick with my 3-valve comp.

BTW, I also play keyboards, guitar and bass, and when you see the Lawrence Welk special, "Precious Memories," on PBS, that's me, with a custom designed fanned fret electric bass built to solve the problem with my left hand pinky, so I don't have to curl my elbow under and cramp my left arm, hand and wrist as I play. I have a matching custom fanned fret guitar that is about the only guitar of my half-dozen or so I play on a regular basis for the same reason, including as the lead guitar player in the worship band in my church's contemporary service.

Sometimes, you have to alter the instrument, not just "learn to get by." Twenty years ago, the theory professor at a local college, who also played clarinet, lost part of several fingers in a chainsaw accident. Within a year, he was back playing bass clarinet with the local orchestra with an instrument with specially designed keys. He sounded as great as ever until the day he died.

[MaryAnn]

I had to go look up fanned-fret guitars, since I had never heard of them.

What a cool concept! It seems it would work quite well for small-handed people too; wish there were a classical (nylon-stringed) version out there.

I'll look for you next time I bump into Welk on TV.

MA

[iiipopes]

Mary Ann - Thanks. I only played on that one special and the last year of the live show in Branson. From a distance, my guitar & bass look stock as I have taken stock designs and have the nut in the same relative square placement. It's when you look at the end of the fingerboard and angled pickups you really notice it. I've actually played a couple of blues gigs where, in the dim light late, a guy will come up, tilt his head at my bass, look at his beer glass in his hand, set it down and leave! Also, the design is not original. In the Paris museum, there is a manuscript drawing by a 16th century English luthier/lutiest labeled with the French translation of Pandora's box, which has the square nut, tilted bridge, fanned frets, and even an adjusted fret or two to account for string stretch near the nut.

Zoro - On some tubas which have intonation problems, especially down low, you'd think so the way you have to manipulate especially the 1st and 2nd valve slides to keep them in tune!

[windshieldbug]

Are there no slide tubas?

[Daryl Fletcher]

fanned fret guitar

Is it similar to Charlie Hunter's?

[iiipopes]

No. From a distance it looks like a stock two humbucker Strat. I started with a square nut, instead of a nut that fans backwards. The only reason the nut is fanned backwards is to get as much length as possible in the lower strings in order to improve tone. I was not out for a tone quest, I was out to design an instrument that I could play for more than 20 minutes without completely cramping up.

I used the standard shorter scale, 24.75 inches, as a start, slightly lengthening the low E to 24.875 and shortening the high e to 24.625, which is actually closer to what the original Gibson Les Paul compensated scale is. I then used my old TI-30 calculator from high school to figure out the fret positions, then had Tommy at USA Custom Guitars in Washington state make the neck to my specs, including a reversed headstock so I could get as much downforce over the nut for sustain for the high e, and then be able to adjust the down angle over the nut for the other strings to get the right balance of tone/sustain.

I'll try to get a picture taken and post it this weekend, as the neck is only the beginning....