My Holy Grail

Stefan Kac · Post by **Stefan Kac** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 9:25 am

I just wrote this off the top of my head. I probably posted this exact same thing almost exactly 6 years ago when I was just finishing high school, but I wonder if the answer is any different today? I really do miss playing BBb. It wasn't until I got extr emely proficient on my pea shooter F that I started to place in (and even win) some of the various pissing contests that us young lions tend to compete in. But I was always convinced it was an inferior instrument, even though the facility is better, the s ound projects better, and doggone it, people really like it (other people, that is). But it never was (and will never be) MY sound. MY sound is a fat *** BBb tuba sound. I was going to sell both my dormant 186 BBb and my overworked YFB-621 in favor of a l arge F or Eb that could be used for solo and chamber stuff (that's all I do). I want to play one horn, only. But I really wish it could be a BBb.

So here's the six year old question: where can I find a BBb with all of the following:

-the classic "American"/"Harvey Phillips playing everything on his CC" sound (yes, I know, it's not just the horn; humor me)
-at least passable intonation
-at least 4 piston valves
-medium or small bore (by BBb standards, that is)

Something on which you could honk out some intermediate solo rep or dixieland solos and reasonably expect to sound damn good. Something that could pass in a small wind ensemble or chamber orchestra. Something to compliment the little Yamaha F if I kept it, but still is essentially a "small horn".

Does such a thing exist? Does anyone want to try to make me one? And wouldn't it still be way cheaper than a Willson 3400?

And yes, I'm aware of the elephant in the room. What if I expand this to include small CC's as well?

In all seriousness, I'd like to know some of your thoughts, especially the repair/etc. people (hopefully you know who you are and don't take offense to that characterization). I don't really "contribute" much around here anymore except for bellyaching, but I really would appreciate some insights. I thought this would go away, but it's never going to as long as I'm playing. And if it's really not ever going to happen, I need to know so I can keep saving my money and visualizing those Eb fingerings...ki

MikeMason · Post by **MikeMason** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 10:56 am

i got a 2j off ebay a while back and couldn't be happier.i think part of horn happiness is not trying to use a horn for other than its intended purpose.i only use my 2j for quintet,small chamber orchestra,and its pretty fun on certain solo lit as well.if i'm feeling a testosterone rush coming,i grab my holton,if i'm doing some high solo or orchestra rep,i grab the f.i think many people's dissatisfaction with equipment is trying to use the wrong horn for a specific task. Bloke, my 2j looks exactly like the olds fullerton,they must be cousins.

tubaman5150 · Post by **tubaman5150** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 11:49 am

My favorite BBb tubas are the older King 2341 tubas. They are so easy to play with a unique fat and clear sound that no other BBb I've heard today has.

Steve Inman · Post by **Steve Inman** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 2:05 pm

You said you were interested in the sound. I'm not sure if you can find med-small bore, one-horn-plays-all BBb tuba THAT HAS the big-@$$ sound you seek. If it does have a BIG sound, then I'm not sure it will cover the occasional solo. So if you are seeking the "best" one-tuba solution, I would recommend you consider a CC or big Eb. Following are some random thoughts that you may or may not find helpful.

Having recently added a YEB-381 (modest-sized Eb -- 5V version of the 321 Eb) to my Conn 56J, AND having owned and played Miraphone 186 BBb, 186 CC, Conn 56J, Besson 983 Eb, Yamaha 381 Eb, a 6V Cerveny rotary F and the Yamaha YFB-621, I might make the following observations from my experience. These may or may not directly address your post.

1. The 381 Eb (15" bell) does indeed have a predictably smaller sound than the 56J. I had previously assumed it would be a GREAT quintet-sized (whatever that is) horn. I'm not quite as confident now, but I was using a smaller Schilke Helleberg mpc, so next week I'll try the full-sized Conn Helleberg. Based on this recent experience, I believe you are looking for something bigger than a YEB-321/381! But as a 2nd horn with a decent bass-tuba sound, a YEB-321/381 is a very decent choice, and an underrated horn IMO. (Of course I'll say that, as I own one!)

2. The Conn 56J (CC, not BBb) and my previous Miraphone 186 CC work and worked very well for me in settings from quintet up to community band and orchestra groups. The 56J does have a nice upper register sound, but not what I consider a good solo/duet/trio type sound -- too broad. But this horn, IMO, may be very close to what you are describing. Reasonably nimble, broader sound from the 20" bell (not quite "big-@$$"), modest bore, etc. But it's not BBb.

3. The closest thing in BBb is the new King 2341. Next might be the old King 2341. I've played both of these models and I personally prefer the 56J CC over them as a good all-around tuba.

4. I asked our local community symphony tubist to play his Willson 3400 Eb and my Conn 56J CC for me for a side-by-side comparison. He was using a medium-large, medium-deep mpc -- the same one for both instruments. My impression follows, after an interjection:

NOTE:
Conn 56J CC is about .690 bore and 20" bell. Willson 3400 Eb is about .700 bore and about 18" bell. Also note the Willson company lists the outside diameter of their tubing, not the inside diameter, resulting in an inflated claim of bore size when compared to other brands. I personally contacted them by email and Herr Willi Kurath did provide me with the inside diameter measurement of the 3400 Eb. These are:
The bore inside deameter is: 1. - 3. valve 18,0mm
4. valve 19,0mm
5. valve 20,5mm

Based on this, I shouldn't have been surprised that the sound of these two tubas was remarkably similar, with the Willson 3400 sounding slightly more focused. No significant difference in volume or fullness of sound. This raised my esteem for the Willson Eb significantly -- the SOUND was that of a 4/4 CC, and I know the playability in the upper register will be easier for me. (Of course, you'll have more 4th valve combination notes down low -- that's the trade-off.)

For my ears, I would seriously consider including the Willson 3400 "Erickson model" as a one-tuba solution also. I was also interested to note the RZ-4 on their web site -- non-compensating 4V with a 19" bell (rotary valve, however). Herr Kurath did mention that this model could be built as a 5V. Hmmmm ....... !! That might be very interesting!

There are some random observations about horns from my perspective, fwiw. I have not yet encountered a BBb that I liked as much as a CC for ease of upper register playing. I don't know why I find this difference, but I do. As a result, I won't likely choose a BBb as a one-all-around-tuba solution. A Conn 56J, or a Willson Eb (of some flavor) are at the top of my current list for such a horn.

Cheers,

chhite · Post by **chhite** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 5:06 pm

Don't know if you've given Kanstul a try, but Lee Stofer was raving about their horns, especially the 5/4 BBb. That may be big for your needs, but they also offer a 4/4 model that appears on the smaller side. Four piston valves and a top-pull main tuning slide, a-la-Marzan. I'd like to try both the BBbs and their 3/4 CC.

MikeMason · Post by **MikeMason** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 6:24 pm

i think i remember Lee S. saying it had a really long 4th slide facing up mounted on the back of the horn. he said it was long enough to get a low B with only 4 valves.i don't think it had a top facing main slide.

chhite · Post by **chhite** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 6:48 pm

I know he mentioned the 5/4 BBb had both the extra-long fourth slide coupled with the top-pull main. Yeah, he was bragging about that B natural.

Stefan Kac · Post by **Stefan Kac** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 7:40 pm

Thanks to everyone for the ideas. I'll make a list of the suggestions and keep my eyes peeled. Just to clarify: I should have avoided using the word "big" with respect to sound. I'm actually thinking of a sound that is unusually focused, BUT, not as dry (or whatever other epithet you use) as the Yamaha. There was an article in the ITEA journal several months (years?) ago that sought to establish a distinction between the "woofie" BAT sound that fills a concert hall and the alternative, a focused sound that is more immediate. I'm definitely thinking of the latter.

As for the Phillips model Holton, I've tried it and didn't like it at all. Probably just a personal preference. I've actually tried a number of tiny BBb's that were designed for 6th graders, including a 3 valve Besson that played amazingly well. I wrote the model number down somewhere. I don't know if any of those would really work out though.o