menroth wrote:I also have some issues with number two. Hetman's number two, that is. Actually, all Hetman's oils. Don't get me wrong, I like them as lubricants and plan to empty the bottles I have (a stash of number 2, 11, 14 & 15 for various uses and different horns, trombones etc.). I have read on this forum that it might be reason to try some other brand if one has this problem, for instance Yamaha syntetic oils, so that's what I plan to do.
No trouble inside the valve casings - but white gunk all over the inside of the horn(s). On the picture, about two weeks of daily practise since last wash. Bon appetit, guys!
First off, thanks to those who offered very fine input on this thread. Perspective is always helpful.
Special thanks for the link to Dave Braun and Tech Oil. I had used some many years ago and lost Dave's contact information.
For about the past 2 weeks I have been using Tech Oil. Results have so far been very favorable in that there is no drying out between playing sessions. Furthermore, upon removing the valves, I have noticed that the lubrication slick is still there and the valves continue to be smooth and somewhat quieter than with the many other oils I have tried. Dave mentions that one could expect to go several weeks between oiling. I know that sounds optimistic, but I am now beginning week 3 with the initial oiling. While it is pricey at 12 bucks a bottle, it does seem to do the job.
Before I applied the Tech Oil, I needed to clean the valves. A nasty mess of scum and a rather serious build up of corrosion. Traditional oils let me down by allowing water to dissolve or breakdown the lubrication and the protection to the metal. I have stainless pistons with brass casings. The pistons were fine but the casings had a considerable build up of hardened corrosion and a scale-like deposit. I usually clean the valves about once a month. However I was away from the f tuba for about 5 weeks. When I came back they were in a serious mess and all 4 pistons were totally seized.
From what I understand from Dave Braun is that his Tech Oil actually keeps water from migrating down the sides of the pistons and casings. When using tradtional oils, petroleum or synthetic I would often need to oil several times a day. Very time consuming.
The verdict is still out, but I have a gut feeling that I may be a Tech Oil convert. Time will tell. I personally know others that are convinced it is the best.
Paul (who generally needs to explore every possibility before he can let it go) Maybery
Wessex 5/4 CC "Wyvern"
Wessex 4/4 F "Berg"
Wessex Cimbasso F
Mack Euphonium
Mack Bass Trombone
Conn 5V Double Bell Euphonium (casually for sale to an interested party)
Al Cass has always been awesome on my stainless pistons.
Instructor of Tuba & Euphonium, Cleveland State University
Principal Tuba, Firelands Symphony Orchestra
President, Variations in Brass http://www.jcsherman.net
menroth wrote:I also have some issues with number two. Hetman's number two, that is. Actually, all Hetman's oils. Don't get me wrong, I like them as lubricants and plan to empty the bottles I have (a stash of number 2, 11, 14 & 15 for various uses and different horns, trombones etc.). I have read on this forum that it might be reason to try some other brand if one has this problem, for instance Yamaha syntetic oils, so that's what I plan to do.
No trouble inside the valve casings - but white gunk all over the inside of the horn(s). On the picture, about two weeks of daily practise since last wash. Bon appetit, guys!
Hi-
Yup, that's the 'Hetman's gunk'.....
Mark
I get that gunk too... I totally thought it was me, my lunch(es), or maybe some residual Chopsaver/lip balm (thought I seldomly use it)... Hm... Interesting. I haven't seen it collect after I started using Yamaha synthetic on my valves and and basic lanolin on the slides.
Okay, it's been almost 4 weeks since trying Tech Oil. I admit I was not sure if it would hold up and I have not added another oiling as of yet. Hours and hours of playing and lots of condensation going through the horn, but the valves have not calcified, stuck or otherwise been anything but smooth and quick. Another perk, at least for me, is that there has been no build of up sludge, just a clean and still well-lubricated surface on the valves and casings. I used all the recommended lubricants mentioned on this post at one time or another, and this is the ONLY one that has given me the results I had hoped for. For matters of "horn hygiene" I do plan to clean things shortly, but someone had mentioned to me that it lasted over a month for them on a cornet, and while I wanted to believe them, I had to find out for myself.
Wessex 5/4 CC "Wyvern"
Wessex 4/4 F "Berg"
Wessex Cimbasso F
Mack Euphonium
Mack Bass Trombone
Conn 5V Double Bell Euphonium (casually for sale to an interested party)
That picture shared above of a 2nd valve slide looks similar to my slide. Even with Yamaha synthetic I started getting that buildup in my M5050. It wasn't as much buildup as with Hetmans, but there still was buildup. Enough buildup that I noticed a difference in tone between 1-2 fingering and 3 fingering.
Two weeks ago I switched to Blue Juice. So far it's working well for me, but it's only been two weeks.
Miraphone 5050 - Warburton BJ/RF mpc YEP-641S(recently sold), DE mpc (102 rim; I-cup; I-9 shank) Symphonic Band of the Palm Beaches: "Always play with a good tone, never louder than lovely, never softer than supported." - author unknown.
I've been using Blue Juice now for three weeks. It's been working fine with good valve action (no staining of SS valves either). Last week I took out my valves to clean them like I normally do each month. I wiped them down and inserted a "Brass Saver" lead-pipe brush into the valve casings and valve ports. I was happy to see no buildup of yellow stuff. There is a chemical smell when using the Blue Juice, but thankfully I don't smell it while playing.
Miraphone 5050 - Warburton BJ/RF mpc YEP-641S(recently sold), DE mpc (102 rim; I-cup; I-9 shank) Symphonic Band of the Palm Beaches: "Always play with a good tone, never louder than lovely, never softer than supported." - author unknown.
menroth wrote:I also have some issues with number two. Hetman's number two, that is. Actually, all Hetman's oils. Don't get me wrong, I like them as lubricants and plan to empty the bottles I have (a stash of number 2, 11, 14 & 15 for various uses and different horns, trombones etc.). I have read on this forum that it might be reason to try some other brand if one has this problem, for instance Yamaha syntetic oils, so that's what I plan to do.
No trouble inside the valve casings - but white gunk all over the inside of the horn(s). On the picture, about two weeks of daily practise since last wash. Bon appetit, guys!
Perfect photographic evidence as to why Hetmans should never be used on anything.
iiipopes wrote:A brand that has fallen out of favor, but has served me well since I started playing brass over forty years ago: Roche-Thomas. It is a conventional oil that does not have any of the drawbacks that others have, especially Hetmans.
I have NEVER had any problem with sludge, gunk, incompatibility with any tuning slide lubricant, or frozen valves EVER, and I have the best valve performance you can get. I have used it on literally hundreds of horns from 5th grade trumpet onward, both on piston valves and down the leadpipe to seal rotors when they dry out from lack of use, and it always performs, does not dilute down, and lasts as long or longer than any other valve oil. Period.
+1. The only stuff I've found that I prefer more is La Tromba T2. They both work very well, but T2 seems to last longer. (On my flugabone I use Hetman Classic because the valves are worn down.)
EDIT: This Tech Oil stuff seems interesting. I might have to try it out when I run short on T2.
After so much time, the following chemistry idea came to me regarding the scum build up from certain valve lubricants. I hate to call all of them oils - synthetic and all that. But there is a correlation.
I had just made some homemade mayonnaise and it dawned on me. "Emulsion."
An emulsion such as mayonnaise is is the product of mixing a fat or oil, an acid(lemon juice or vinegar, and a protein such as egg. The result is a white creamy product. Pretty much what I was finding on my valves and the ends of tuning slides.
Certainly the turbulence of mashing the valves up and down with very close tolerances, acid mouth moisture with attending food protein and the oily subtance, could in effect create a mayonnaise-like emulsion-like scum.
Just a wild theory.
Paul "who even in his sleep is looking for answers" Maybery
Wessex 5/4 CC "Wyvern"
Wessex 4/4 F "Berg"
Wessex Cimbasso F
Mack Euphonium
Mack Bass Trombone
Conn 5V Double Bell Euphonium (casually for sale to an interested party)
PaulMaybery wrote:After so much time, the following chemistry idea came to me regarding the scum build up from certain valve lubricants. I hate to call all of them oils - synthetic and all that. But there is a correlation.
I had just made some homemade mayonnaise and it dawned on me. "Emulsion."
An emulsion such as mayonnaise is is the product of mixing a fat or oil, an acid(lemon juice or vinegar, and a protein such as egg. The result is a white creamy product. Pretty much what I was finding on my valves and the ends of tuning slides.
Certainly the turbulence of mashing the valves up and down with very close tolerances, acid mouth moisture with attending food protein and the oily subtance, could in effect create a mayonnaise-like emulsion-like scum.
Just a wild theory.
Paul "who even in his sleep is looking for answers" Maybery
I found this thread over on one of the other tuba/euph forums that seem to describe what the film is.
I only started researching this because I had to clean that nasty stuff out of my horn this evening and will probably, very quickly, be switching to Blue Juice or other valve oil that is less prone to causing this.
Romans 3:23-24
Billy Morris
Rudolf Meinl Model 45, Musikmesse Horn
Boosey & Hawkes Imperial Eb (19" Bell)
1968 Besson New Standard Eb (15" Bell)
I use only Al Cass oil and use it quite often; always before playing and typically few times during a gig - and after gig I try to remember to clean valves and put Al Cass a lot. Periodically clean and wash valves/horn inside-out. I tried Hetman but didnt like. Still, with my worn-out old euphonium (non-steel valves) I use Hetman Classic while also there Al Cass oil works better to me.
bloke wrote:Slimy-appearing oil is due to a mixture of those oils with stuff that really ought to be cleaned out of those instruments...stuff that is hidden well out of view, or that has hardened and adhered to surfaces and is only visible (as white or greenish white) when those surfaces are bone-dry.
I should really stop posting this (as there obviously is little interest) but properly manufactured and undamaged valves/casings with good valve guides will work beautifully if they are (REALLY) clean, and with most any valve oil, including "pawn-shop-beginner-trumpet leftover oil", and paraffin "ultra-pure" lamp oil.
If certain brands of oils seem to "slime up" more than others, perhaps (??) those oils have more cleaning properties than some other oils, and those particular oils might possibly have a little bit of a tendency to dissolve substances (lime, slime, and filth) which (again) really should be completely removed from instruments.
This sounds right to me. I had been experiencing a lot of the Hetman gunk on my Wessex Eb (I'd bought a demo horn), even though I'd been cleaning it myself on a fairly regular basis. I had it chem cleaned a few months ago, and no gunk since.
