Loud Bands

[Rick F]

I play in 2 comm bands. We're always being told that we're playing too loud. One conductor likes to say, "Well you got the 'blastisimo' part right, now if you could only get down to pp where it's marked, that would be great."

In one band - where we have 4 euphs - we normally drop to one player for pp, two for p then all can play at mf or higher. We were playing only one on a part in one section of "Victory at Sea" when Maestro Loras Schissel was conducting us. He stopped the band and told us all to play - but softy. It did sound better with more voices I thought.

I would think dropping to one on a part is pretty normal. Yes - no?

[Tom Holtz]

Let the rant begin!!!

Any conductor who has been in front of a band for any length of time is going to tell the low instruments they're too loud, because they can't hear the high instruments anymore. Exhibit A: the ringtone that parents can't hear...

For articles other than this NPR story, search Google for "mosquito ringtone"

People naturally lose the upper spectrum of their hearing as they get older. Standing in front of a band every day makes the problem worse, and faster, too. There's a reason conductors keep all the highest pitched instruments close to them up front. I'm sure many conductors will insist their hearing is just fine, thank you, but it's a simple fact that it isn't. Bands are @#$!%ing loud, and crush a conductors ears. You play tuba? Get used to The Hand.

We love playing loud as much as the next section, we just don't crank up the torque that often. Even when there's 10-14 clarinets and some flutes hammering away, it's not uncommon for the section to put the horns down and let Cameron cover the part himself. Happens all the time. We know the conductor is hearing all the tuba they care to hear, and probably more, especially with all the BATs we use in the band. The big horn isn't helping anyone's cause in this situation. If it's obvious that balance is going to be a problem, it's our job (and it's yours, too) to sierra tango foxtrot uniform.

Exhibit B: Different problem, same reason... The officers at Marine Barracks have noted in the past that the melody isn't loud enough when the band plays at the Evening Parade on Friday nights. We march a 36 piece band on Friday nights, 8 of them are trumpets--almost a quarter of the band. One plays the 3rd part, one plays 2nd, the other 6 play the 1st part. I believe the part distribution is the same for the 8 clarinets in the formation. The band is only 36 total. You can't hear the melody with those numbers? There's a reason...

Nature and physics are not in favor of the tuba section on this issue.

[tofu]

The thing that always strikes me when I listen to a British Brass Band is the contrast. They play incredibly well and together from pppp to ffff. The thing that strikes me on this side of the pond is that we just play loud with not much contrast. The groups that do strive to have the wide contrast and play pppp seem to lack that broad but very soft sound that the best British Brass Bands seem to achieve so effortlessly.

I bet it's because they don't use those beastly CC's & F's! (just kidding)

[Chuck(G)]

I was reminded of this thread when I listened to this week's "Listen to the Band". The band that's the subject of this week's program is the Brighouse and Rastrick Band, currently celebrating their 125th year.

At any rate, the leadoff work on the program is "Floral Dance". I suppose every brass band on the face of the earth has played this one--it's certainly a summertime favorite of our band. It's not technical and rather straightforward (and one of the two songs that I know with the word "euphonium" in the lyrics). Piece of cake.

Yet, when I listen to B&R play it, it sounds nothing like the way our band does it. Their dynamic control and blend is to envied.

See if you don't think so:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/shows/rp ... enband.rpm

[tubatooter1940]

It's never too loud for me but the owner of the bar and I work out a hand signal to give him or her to direct volume up or down.
If I get a one finger salute, I can assume the there are more problems than just the volume.

[OldBandsman]

Doc, it's not age. It's attitude!

Ensemble music is a cooperative enterprise. I go into a session with the attitude that all the players are important and that each of us will contribute appropriately. So my goal is to play in such a way that my sounds make the contribution that's needed. The bass line I lay down has to do its job; rhythm, tonality, solid support for melodies in other instruments, fuller output if bass gets the tune, and so on. We often hear the term "fit and finish" when we look for a new automobile. I want my bass line to have the right "fit and finish" too. So I'm mindful about my attitude when I pick up the horn.

John

[passion4tuba]

I have seen a couple of comments about loud playing centering mainly in the midwest, but in Texas where I live, my band director says that most Texas bands play within the mf-ff range and don't move greatly beyond that. I did play in the midwest in my middle school years, i can't really be a judge since only middle school bands i heard, however they did seem to play relativley loud for thier age, and not always in tune throughout the ensamble. Great ensamble performance is supposed to be good no matter what dynamic range though, so why is it that Texas high school bands have such a challenge to play soft? let's say mp-pp?

[Tubadork]

Here is my take,
from most of the bands I have heard (military or otherwise, but generally not brass bands) they do tend to play too loud (I have been guilty of this too, so this is not a condemnation of any sort). Last week on an orchestral gig it occured to me, that because there is only one of me and my timbre is unique, I don't have to work at all to be heard by the audience or to be able to hear myself. It's really to easy (within reason) to get up and out of the ensemble, but when I have played with bands because there are 2 other tuba players and whole slew of other brass, not to mention all the woodwinds, that it's difficult to hear what you're doing because the tone colors of having all the other trombones and bari sax etc.. the sound gets more muddled and so in an effort to get our voice out there and to be able to hear what we are doing, we tend to push the volume a little, others hear this and do the same (because they want to hear themselves too). I think that many of these fine musicians have studied orchestral technique in school have the same reaction to bands that I did. NOTE: there are some schools that teach ensemble playing in a band context (St. Olaf comes to mind) but I think on the whole it's not something we are used to doing. (And I think wind esemble playing is more closely related to orchestral playing than playing in a concert band.) Don't get me wrong this is not a cut on anyones musicianship, I really think it is a familiarity issue. I think with the right situation (group of players, conductor etc..) any of these fine musicians could change their ensemble expectations and the bands would play softer and also blend better and have a better end product.
Bill

[TubaRay]

How else could Jerry Springer remain on the air?
Doc

This is something I have been trying to figure out for some time.

[WoodSheddin]

Here is my take,
from most of the bands I have heard (military or otherwise, but generally not brass bands) they do tend to play too loud

I have noticed a lot of this also. There seems to be 2 dynamics, Off and On. Not very much finesse in the Mezzo On stuff.

There is at least one band which almost always seems to get it right, but they have issues with those funky red jackets they insist on wearing.

[Leland]

The thing that always strikes me when I listen to a British Brass Band is the contrast. They play incredibly well and together from pppp to ffff. The thing that strikes me on this side of the pond is that we just play loud with not much contrast. The groups that do strive to have the wide contrast and play pppp seem to lack that broad but very soft sound that the best British Brass Bands seem to achieve so effortlessly.

I bet it's because they don't use those beastly CC's & F's! (just kidding)

I honestly think one reason brass bands get such a wide dynamic range is because they don't have to deal with woodwinds, which have a narrower dynamic range (either perceived or measurable) and just can't play as softly.

There have been times in band and wind ensemble where I've wanted to hear our woodwinds get softer and reach the pppp that the brasses were doing, but it never seemed to happen.

Directors often aren't in the best location to hear ensemble balance either, IMO. Everybody in the group is going to seem quite loud anywhere above mp when you hear them from only ten or fifteen feet away. If they can step out to where the audience would be, or get a good recording from the proper distance, then they can get an accurate assessment of balance.

From standing outside the President's Own parade block every Friday, I think that one of the issues they have to face is the fact that a lot of the trumpets' sound goes straight into the players standing in front of them. The trombones come across great from the other end of the parade deck, but that's to be expected -- they make up the front line. But from inside the Barracks, or from the top of the roof, the balance is much better, and the trumpets can be heard just fine. The only way that they could be easily heard from ground level wold be to point their horns at an angle, past the shoulder of the player in front -- but I don't think that will be allowed any time soon.

[poomshanka]

I was just at the Air Force band concert at ITEC. The band was in, some ways, very good. All the parts were there, played cleanly, but I was a suprised at the volume. It felt like they forgot they were playing inside. It was sometimes painfully loud and lacked the contrast of truly quiet and delicate playing, in addition to overpowering the soloist at times. I'm wondering if this is normal or if it was a probem with the hall or if I'm just used to a very different style of playing. Any comments are appreciated. It was just so loud.

Having heard that same concert, I'm somewhat inclined to consider the "problems with the hall" to a certain extent. Sitting in the floor/orchestra seats, as well as slightly further back in the hall, I found things to be very muddy, and perhaps this lack of clarity contributed somewhat to the overall perception of volume. Yes, soloists *were* hard to hear in passages, and the Marine Band tuba quartet that performed just before seemed to be lacking a certain fire and punctuation in their performance. Joe Murphy and I sat together for this concert, and both felt the same way about the sound.

HOWEVER...

When we sat up in one of the side booths, the sound was TOTALLY different. We caught the Euphoniums Unlimited performance from that vantage point, and were absolutely blown away by the sound. You could hear everything.

I spoke with some of the academy band players, and they seemed to like the way the group felt on stage. Having spent four years touring with a USAF field band, I can kinda identify with that feeling. We'd go out on tours where one night we were in symphony hall, the next in a high school theater with a .00001 second ring out, the next in a VFW hall. Being on a decent stage was a real treat, but after having to "muscle through" performances in crap venues (more the norm, sadly), I felt that when the group got into a decent hall, we didn't always adjust as well as we might have had we been more used to playing in nice acoustical environments.

Not to say all bands are created equal, and that it's always a problem with the hall (as opposed to the musicians), but I think in this case things might've been perceived a little differently from an alternative seat in the house. I know that was my personal experience in that hall.

...Dave

[LoyalTubist]

I attended grad school at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas. The Music School is set up for singers, although I understand this has changed since I graduated from there in 1992. The recital hall was a tiny place with about 600 seats in the audience. The wind ensemble/concert band had less than 30 members and the recital hall was where we normally met for rehearsal. It was a fine band and we could definitely play loud in the tiny building where we rehearsed. Someone thought it was only the room that made us loud, but we proved, on tour we could play loud anywhere. I remember some kind of Hog Festival we played in Arkansas... we had to compete with a fire engine siren demonstration. We won! We seemed to go for that kind of thing when we were on tour. Chickens in Mississippi... Anole lizards in Louisiana... But it was a lot of fun.

[TonyTuba]

Brass bands are set up in an ingenious way to help with balance and contrast. The instrumentation makes the balance. if you see a brass band with the standard instrumentation, all you have to do is get all players to play the exact same dynamic and it will always be balanced. This is what most top notch brass bands seem to have going for them...control of the individuals to make the whole. Many years have gone by to end up with what is now in place. Concert bands are not evenly balanced, so there will be issues, always, and a director will need to fix them.

I am really impressed at how many first hand contributors from the military bands have chimed in on this thread. Hearing their take on issues like this could help others in their local situations, if for no other reason than to know that everyone deals with these issues.

I work with a brass band that does not play soft enough. Playing soft is hard to do. It takes a lot of individual work by the players to be able to control their horns at extreme dynamic ranges. When most players can do this, then you have to get everyone in the ensemble to do it the same. it is not easy to do. We keep fighting the good fight though. Someday we will get there.

[brattom]

My 2 cents...

Since there has been a lot of discussion on the differences between brass bands and concert bands, I will make this observation.

IMO, brass bands need to play with greater dynamic contrast than other large ensembles mainly because of their lack of diversity of timbre and color (bring on the flames!)

This is not a bad thing. It is a good thing. It would be nice if more groups tried to play with that kind of dynamic contrast. However, as a whole, I would say that the majority of brass bands (purely based on numbers) don't play with any greater dynamic range than your average concert band.

In fact, this whole thread could be a discussion on the differences between conductors rather than ensembles. Our current boss makes dynamics and balance a priority, where that has not always been the case with other people that have conducted our band - both military and non-military.

It certainly is impressive to hear a world class brass band play pp or ff, but there certainly is more to music than just dynamic levels. I have heard more than one brass band play extreme dynamics while completely missing the mark on other aspects of the performance. I have one recording of a brass band playing the Witches Sabbath where the Dies Irae has wrong notes in it.

Going back to the original topic, here is an interesting article that talks about the challenges of achieving good balance in halls not designed for some of their uses. (Registration required)

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/24/arts/ ... 4hall.html

In defense of the AFA Band, I will say by looking at the web page for the concert hall (http://www.du.edu/lamont/bldg_gates.html), it does mention "exceptional acoustics with full adjustability." Perhaps the acoustical setting of the hall was not optimum for a large concert band.

Tom Bratten
I used to be Tony Granados