Replate Your Own Valves

[Dan Schultz]

You all misread the second post after the Eastwood quote.

I asked what about having the final .0002 or so coat of boron nitride at the end of the usual conventional plating process

I didn't misread your post. I just ignored the suggestion about the boron nitride coating. This might be fun to try but I seriously doubt if it would be worth the effort and expense. The use of disimilar metals could be good or bad... depending on how the experiment goes. The real key is the lubricant that is used. It's always been my opinion that even brass on brass works just fine as long as a lubricant film is always present.

[iiipopes]

Well, with all due respect, that's exactly why I did post. Yes, good copper, then rerounding, then replating, then honing, then nickel replating honed and lapped properly by a craftsman is the current state of the art in valve rebuilding, and it has served well for decades.

But with time you either progress or die. Is there anybody besides me out there who is willing to innovate, and I don't mean just dressing up an old tuba design with a new garland, so as not to risk becoming as anachronistic as string players?

I appreciate conventional designs. They work well. If they didn't, they would not have become the convention. But every idea and every way of doing things was new at some point, and to fall into the sludge of self-contentment of, "We've always done it that way," is to go ahead and bury yourself while you're still alive.

Learn from the past, discard the trash, hang on to what's proven its worth, and INNOVATE! Not all new ideas are going to be good. This one may not be, either, but I'm willing to post it as a thread, for as to quote Arthur C. Clarke out of 2001: A Space Oddessey, "Where a million failures wouldn't matter, one success could change the course of destiny."

Then again, we coula all go back to playing ophicliedes and sarrousaphones, but except to reinact a period piece to appreciate how far we've come and remind ourselves how far we have to go, I'll pass.

[windshieldbug]

I respectfully submit that you are submitting your request to the wrong people here, iiipopes...

Reengineering people rightfully belong on the staffs of the manufacurers, not the reconstruction people with whom you are having the conversation.

Nor do I hear anyone maintaining that "we could all go back to playing ophicliedes and sarrousaphones". (although I found playing ophicleides a strangely satisfying and enjoyable experience, and suggest that we could learn, too, from not just honking on them, but by discovering many of the LOST techniques used in high level performances with these beasts)

[iiipopes]

Not necessarily regarding this idea, which may not be a good one, but on others I have submitted them. One of my ideas is being considered as we speak by a Chinese firm trying to improve their tubas. It may not be a good idea either, but at least they are listening to it to see if it is.

Good ideas oft times come from the players who have to deal with the instruments on the playing end of things. That's why brass instruments have triggers, saddles, rings, etc. on the slides. The ideas came from the players first, as well as the people on the floor assembling the instruments for better ways to do it or from the engineers who look into such things, or even from the owners, such as V Bach himself having to figure out in a hurry what he was going to do about his mouthpiece being ruined by another person trying to "improve" it.

Bad ideas also come from players, because they're players, not necessarily engineers. But even the bad ideas can lead to other good ideas once their shortcomings are thought through properly as to what aspects need to be addressed that are not addressed by the original idea.

The rant isn't over whether or not BN plating is a good idea, nor who should hear about it. Unless everybody hears it and has their input, then it can't be tested as to whether it's a good idea or not. The rant is about being summarily dismissed in a place that's supposed to hear and air out the ideas.

Whether me or anybody else, at least if you are going to disagree, and I expect people to disagree or I would not have posted, do so with objectivity and rationality. I appreciated TubaTinker's post before the Eastwood quote, because it set forth the lessons learned from great experience succinctly, and by the opportunity to learn by reading such experience and heeding the advice I refrained from a big mistake of trying to do a "patch" job myself. For that, a hearty thank you so I don't risk damaging my tuba.

A forum is never the wrong place to air new ideas. That's absurd, and goes against the purpose and origin of the word "forum." Thank goodness Sean has this forum to do just that. Maybe a particular thread may be the better vehicle to air the thread, and if this is the wrong thread, then my apologies and my request to Sean to split it out to a separate thread including other progressive ideas in valves, since the current state of the art of valve manufacture is at a plateau, and has been for a couple of generations.

And finally, please accept my sincerity that all my ideas, rants, quotes, and posts are meant singularly for the purpose of betterment of tubas and tubists generally, as is this forum.

Thank you.

[windshieldbug]

Sincerity accepted!!

[Chuck(G)]

Don't fret too much.

I wondered why no one made stainless steel mouthpieces a few years ago.

Who wants to do PVD coatings on mouthpieces now? I think a gold TiN coating would look very sexy on a stainless mouthpiece.

How about PVD coated valves? Should have more resistance to wear. Maybe I'll submit this one to a Chinese builder--they already coat tons of drill bits with PVD TiN.

I wonder if it would be possible to fit a piston valve with piston rings?

[iiipopes]

Hey, Chuck D - I like your way of thinking. Do you know if a PVD coating is hypoallergenic? My son is allergic/hypersensitive to most bare metals, including nickel and silverplate, so as he will be starting band in a couple of years, the only viable options are 1) DEG nylon cup, which doesn't necessarily have the best tone but I did get a great deal on a new old stock off eBay, 2) Kelly, which is really good for the money, but not well known around here, or 3) spend the bucks for a lexan rim on a namebrand mouthpiece, which of course I'll do if necessary, but I'd love a lesser expensive or different option so he has the feel of a "real," meaning all metal mouthpiece on his lips.

Speaking of mouthpiece ideas that didn't last, at least in their original incarnations: Conn rubber rims and Visi-Tones; but now we have screw on rims and clear Kellys for teachers. Refined idea of the same thing.

Let's see: the Reynolds servo for the 1st valve so you can both push & pull and it returns to a nominal position, so you can make fine tuning adjustments both ways and know they'll return to center; the same spring in a smaller version with a different bracket keeps Stratocaster whammys centered for people who both pull & push; it's called a Hipshot Tremsetter.

I'm sure there are others out there, that's just all I can think of off the top of my head. It's why we have a patent office. And some of them are actually useful. As the reason we're able to communicate on this forum.

[Chuck(G)]

Hey, Chuck D - I like your way of thinking. Do you know if a PVD coating is hypoallergenic? My son is allergic/hypersensitive to most bare metals

PVD TiN has been certified for use on surgical implants (e.g. artificial hips) by the FDA as a biologically inert coating:

http://www.pfonline.com/articles/070003.html