bad reply

[Rick Denney]

From my business perspective, Joe has actually hit the nail on the head, and others have said good things.

It is a negotiation. Don't play the game if you don't want to negotiate. Always keep it positive. Never complain. Never compare. Never say bad things about the competition. And NEVER whine.

And remember that the customer sets the price, but the price the customer sets doesn't necessarily get the product the customer wants.

Thus: The complaint about Bloke's recommendation of students diminishes if it could be worded a little differently to remove any offense. "We know of some good students in the area who could probably meet your needs and who are able to charge rates that fall within your budget. I would be happy to put you in touch with them." That would tell me that you simply won't work for less than what you offered. It also tells me that if I want a professional, that's the price I'll pay. And it gives me an acceptable (though not optimal) option if my budget really is limited.

Also: Bloke's first suggested wording, which emphasizes the quality and services provided. "Our musicians will bring x, y, and z instruments and will work closely with your staff and invest the necessary preparation time to help make your event a success. Our price is $this. We would love to play for your and look forward to your confirmation. We need the confirmation by such-and-such date to make sure the musicians are available." Clarity is always best and sounds most professional.

Comparing musicians to other professionals (or non-professionals) just sounds like whining.

Rick "who would be a better salesman if he listened to his own advice" Denney

[Rick Denney]

also, we recently decided to add the clause in the contract that if up until week before the gig we get a better paying gig we can cancel.

Even for a "promo" gig, this is unprofessional. Even if you are giving your services for FREE, it's unprofessional. The ONE thing a professional ALWAYS displays is reliability--they do what it takes to make sure the gig is covered.

We all know pros who have taken cabs the the site of broken-down cars, hired (at their own expense) subs to cover for them when they are sick, and on and on. That's the mark of a pro. An amateur might be able to rationalize blowing off a gig if a better offer comes along, though in those ways I try to behave professionally even when I'm an amateur.

Rick "calling it like he sees it" Denney

[Rick Denney]

note: There actually MAY NOT BE a "possible" gig here for ANYone: The old man may have anticipated an expense of c. $25/person and budgeted for such.

Here's some wording for this situation: Frankly, I'm not sure I know of anyone who will be able to meet your needs for the budget you have in mind. I suspect it would take at least $X to get local students able to perform adequately, and our price for professional service is $Y. Please let me know if I can be of further service.

Note that when you say this, you are giving up the gig. But as a business decision, I'd rather have no gig than one that costs more to perform than it earns.

If you negotiate, always negotiate scope as well as fee. If the guy says "I can't pay that much", offer to provide reduced services--fewer people if that's appropriate, shorter work hours if that works--as a means of lowering the price. That way, you are not cutting your rates, but you are still trying to meet the guy's needs.

Rick "not good at sales but much better at negotiating contracts" Denney

[tubatooter1940]

Sounds to me like the job is gone-but you never know until a date certain. Keep beating the bushes and find more gigs of all kinds.
Those who play for the music and fun over cash consider fun gigs best at any price.
We donate an evening of music once a year to the University of Alabama. They don't need the money but the celebrities and fine chow line are memorable. Women who gravitate toward that income level look amazing.

[Steve Inman]

I agree with much of what has been said. You are negotiating and you may also be educating the customer. You should do so without a hint of condescending.

Always keep it professional. Always keep it positive. Know in advance what your bottom dollar is, and stick with that. Know in advance if you will make exceptions to your minimum fee, and why. Provide the discount if the customer meets the requirement. Explain the benefits of using your group. Be as helpful as you can. Etc.

You may not get the gig, but if you' negative in any respect, you MAY get negative press / recommendations from the customer who didn't use you: "No, Bob, don't use them -- they're a bunch of jerks."

When I have a positive experience with a vendor I may or may not think to recommend them to others. But when someone provides me with a poor experience, I'm primed to warn friends, family, neighbors and even low-grade enemies to avoid such a service provider. Work to avoid that situation if at all possible.

Cheers,

[BopEuph]

This reminds me of a similar experience I had not with a performing gig, but an engraving one. A professor at a school I just finished came to me and told me he needed a rush job of a big band score because the composer's computer (the composer was another professor at the school) crashed and all that was left was the score. I said sure, and he asked me to quote it. When I looked at the score, it was a big one; an $800-1200 dollar job easily.

This professor told me he doesn't have much money for the chart, and asked that I discounted the job. I told him 500. I wish I had a picture of his face. This professor was used to getting free work from students because we are on scholarship and should be thankful for that (a real quote of the department). He told me I was a ripoff and that I would never work in this town for that price. The funny thing about that was that I have been an established copyist for a long time in the area and am the composition professor's personal engraver.

I explained the cost of the job, and he wouldn't take it. He told me another student would do the job for $200. I knew who he was talking about, and is by no stretch of the imagination a copyist/engraver. I didn't mention any of that, but I did say I'm sorry, but you get what you pay for.

I find out later that all he was willing to pay was that 200, and he was just hoping I would quote it, but was actively trying to see what trouble would arise.

The moral of the story here, though is that I still work as a copyist around the area, and have been accumulating a rather large amount of clients considering the nature of the job, and it makes enough to pay rent and eat. I did, however, have future problems with said professor. I needed something done at the school, and he simply said, "you didn't scratch my back, so I'm not scratching yours." It directly affected auditions for the jazz ensembles (more than obvious, when I have been the top gigging bassist around the area and these guys are still having trouble reading charts) and caused some friction my last semester at the school. Long story short, I felt backed into a corner and don't want that to ever happen to me again, but don't want to be screwed over, either.

Nick

[Steve Inman]

I needed something done at the school, and he simply said, "you didn't scratch my back, so I'm not scratching yours."

Mean people suck.

[tubaguy9]

Oh, how I loved the gig I had a few weeks to a month or so ago...

What happened, is that there were 40 trombone players for a guy's 76th birthday...as you can guess, we played an arrangement of 76 Trombones, with some Happy Birthday thrown in. So, we rehearse for a while (maybe an hour at most?) and then we have time to blow...So, then we go back to play for the actual gig. And, wait a few weeks, and get a $50.00 check in the mail...and it was mentioned before the gig that we would get paid.

While we were there, some moms figured out that this was for a rich guy that donated a fair bit of money to the zoo, and the penguin exhibit is named/dedicated/whatever to him...

Oh, how I wish I could have more gigs like that...

[DaTubaKid]

40 trombone players X $50 = $$$$

I don't wish I had a gig like that so much as I wish I had the wallet to finance that sort of gig.

[Dean]

Happy Easter gig, boys.

Seconded!!


The one time a year that a euphonium can get hired!! (even if its only because the area has run out of trombonists....)

[NC_amateur_euph]

I resemble that remark! No, I represent...no, oh, whatever.

I'm a eupher that got an Easter gig - but it's a freebie (for my own church). We're doing both services so we get double normal scale. Somebody remind me how to multiply by zero.

But the chance to play Frescobaldi and Haydn with some folks that know which end of the slide to pull makes it more than worth it.

Peace be with you!

[brianggilbert]

Personally, I'd be a little upset if our ensemble's booking guy replied in this fashion to an inquiry.

Bad news travels faster than good, and a poor personal exchange like this is likely to cause more problems down the road. If you're in charge of securing gigs, the other members of the ensemble are placing a lot of responsibility at your feet.

Despite the fact that this gig wasn't really knocking you over with anticipation, I hope it doesn't cause problems down the line for you...