Eb in Quintet

[Steve Inman]

Scott,

Thanks very much for the additional information.

I can't wait to get the chance to try a Norwegian Star, and I'm hoping it's low BBb is perhaps a bit better than the Firebird's low C -- which in my book isn't "effortless" (as you mentioned) but very nearly so -- the best low C on any rotary F I've ever played.

If the 283 ends up "feeling" the same as the 281, I may just give in and go back to F for my bass tuba. If the 283 is even closer to "effortless" then I'll probably stay with Eb and end up with one of those, as I really like the German rotary bass tuba sound.

Cheers,

[Jack Denniston]

My Willson 3400 works very well in the quintets I play with. It also works fine for brass band, tuba quartet, brass choir, concert band, dixieland, and orchestra gigs. For mouthpieces I use a ME-1 and a MF-4.

[Steve Inman]

Rats! Another satisfied 3400 owner ....

A lot of TubeNetters are quite happy with their Willson Eb's. I REALLY tried to like the couple I've tried out, because I was looking for a "one-tuba-does-it-all" horn. But the low register on both horns just didn't respond very easily. My (smaller) Yamaha Eb was much easier to play (nimble, agile, notes just pop out of the horn, effortless, etc.). But I think I'm looking for something a bit larger. I'm truly glad there are some good 3400's out there, as I think it could be a great choice for an Eb.

Next on my list to try are the 2141 and the Norwegian Star. If anyone in the vicinity of the areas where I live or occasionally travel to** has an example of a "stellar" Willson and would be willing to let me toot on it for 15 minutes when I'm driving by, PLEASE let me know. **(Indianapolis area and regions between there and Milwaukee or Detroit).

Who knows, maybe a YEB-381 with a standard Helleberg (my "pretend to be a bigger Eb" set-up) is ... MY DESTINY!

Trust the force, Luke,

[Steve Inman]

Thanks. James and I chat every once in a while. And the DEG location just skipped my mind -- I should probably try to arrange a visit, just to get a chance to play more than one or two.

Cheers,

[Tom Holtz]

I use my Besson 983 all the time. Too bad they're so hard to find, because that would fit the bill for the original poster.

[Lew]

I use my Besson 983 all the time. Too bad they're so hard to find, because that would fit the bill for the original poster.

I too find myself using my Besson 983 for more and more playing. It has a great singing high range and is the easiest tuba I own on which to play in the low range. Unfortunately with the major changes that have happened to Boosey & Hawkes over the past couple of years, I would wonder whether newer versions would play as well. Others have complained that compensating tubas play "stuffy" but I find no evidence of that on my 983.

However, given that the original poster wanted to look at rotary valve Ebs, the only one with which I have experience is the M-W 2040/5. The one I played had the type of sound that it appears he is seeking and seemed very well in tune. I didn't find the low range response as good as on my Besson, but that is probably due to the operator more than the horn.

A piston Eb that I really liked was the PT-22. Again good scale and good Eb sound for quintet or large ensemble.

[jeopardymaster]

I haven't seen it mentioned, but this DOES matter. The 983 has the same disadvantage as any of the Willson, Yamaha, Mirafone or MW Eb's that utilize a right hand 4th valve versus the 3 + 1 configuration.

At the cost of ready slide access, having that 4th valve accessible to the left hand you gain considerable facility with your right hand. In the low register that is a distinct advantage.

I love my 983 in quintet settings, but must confess, it makes me work a lot harder to play low rapid passages. It's ergonomics, pure and simple.

[Tom Holtz]

I love my 983 in quintet settings, but must confess, it makes me work a lot harder to play low rapid passages. It's ergonomics, pure and simple.

For me it's the opposite. I've been playing on an Ambassador 3+1 config for almost a month now at work, trying to get the hang of incorporating my left index finger into the mix, and it's not happening. It all seems easier with 4 on the front than 3+1.

[Donn]

It primarily involves to what we are accustomed.

Perhaps...?? (if we were accustomed to it) one logical set-up on tubas would be to have the so-called "4th valve" be operated by a thumb trigger, as the thumb is probably more nimble than the pinky...

Yeah, that's why the bassoon is so easy to play!

My main problem with my little finger is my ring finger - when the little finger goes down, the ring finger follows. 124 is hard with long throw pistons.

[Alex C]

I love my 983 in quintet settings, but must confess, it makes me work a lot harder to play low rapid passages. It's ergonomics, pure and simple.

For me it's the opposite. I've been playing on an Ambassador 3+1 config for almost a month now at work, trying to get the hang of incorporating my left index finger into the mix, and it's not happening. It all seems easier with 4 on the front than 3+1.

You may have bilateral integration dysfunction. Though not universally referred to by this name, it is a recognized physiological disorder.

It isn't that your left hand doesn't know what your right hand is doing, the problem is that you cannot coordinate the two. That explains my dreadful piano juries and the lack of any hint of success on woodwinds. It might also explain your issues. Practice will not make it better, go see an Occupational Therapist, explain the coordination problem, and see if you can get treated. It may help. It may not.

I played a Boosey & Hawkes 982 for 10 years and could never manage the fourth valve, and had no clue as to why. I met my (now) wife, who is an Occupational Therapist, and she immediately diagnosed the probable cause. "Yeah, I treat kids who have this every week. Easy to fix unless you're an adult."

I eventually sold my wonderful Boosey & Hawkes, defeated by the left hand 4th valve.

[Wyvern]

You may have bilateral integration dysfunction. Though not universally referred to by this name, it is a recognized physiological disorder.

It isn't that your left hand doesn't know what your right hand is doing, the problem is that you cannot coordinate the two.

Bad luck for any British players who are almost universally brought up with the 3+1 configuration.

Although for a few it may be a medical problem, my personal experience is that which works is a lot down to what the player is familiar. I for 30 years played 3+1 configuration tubas, without problem. At first when I got a front valve tuba I found the four in a line slower, but over the last three years have got completely comfortable with front valves. When I recently tried a friend's 3+1 tuba, I found I now have problems with hand co-ordination, as I have not played such a set-up for the last year.

I think with time and practice most players can get used to either set-up - although no doubt in my mind, that front valves are far better ergonomically.

[MaryAnn]

I find that with 4 in-line piston valves, I have speed/reach/coordination problems with that darn pinky valve.
With the pinky rotor I can just slam away at it and it works. Maybe it's because I played piano since I was little, which admittedly is much more similar to rotors than pistons in terms of action of the hand.

MA

[Alex C]

I for 30 years played 3+1 configuration tubas, without problem. At first when I got a front valve tuba I found the four in a line slower, but over the last three years have got completely comfortable with front valves. When I recently tried a friend's 3+1 tuba, I found I now have problems with hand co-ordination, as I have not played such a set-up for the last year.

I think with time and practice most players can get used to either set-up - although no doubt in my mind, that front valves are far better ergonomically.

I can diagnose from this distance that you probably do not have bilateral integration dysfunction.

It is helpful for the teacher and the musician to know that there are people who cannot "get used" to 3+1. Time and practice will not bring a high degree of success to the individual who has this type dysfunction.

It is not a matter of getting used to to it; until the physiological dysfunction is treated and "cured" (or coping mechanisms are found) exceptional ability will not be realized.

These people also cannot expect to play piano or clarinet well (like, who wants to?) and they may have the additional problem of getting "right" and "left" continually mixed up.

I wonder how many students failed on instruments that required two hands when, if properly diagnosed, they could have been assigned an instrument where they had a chance of success. I doubt one band or orchestra director in a hundred is aware of this type dysfunction.