I need a horn that will do it all.......

[PWtuba]

I have to agree with Roger. I just bought a 188 from Brasswind and picked up from the freight depot today. Thanks again Roger the horn is at home safe & sound.

Yep. I agree.

[Phil Dawson]

[I want a BBb or CC. I want a horn that PLAYS! Meaning, I'm not looking to fart around in a polka or dixieland band. I want a horn that has intonation and SPEED. I have a horn now that I just got and it's basically a "student model". I need a horn that will easily and CLEANLY play anything I throw at it.]

I need this horn too. If the horn could do all of that then I wouldn't need to practice. It seems to me that Arnold Jacobs was always proud of the fact that he could play anything on "the horn nearest to the door".
I hope you think that Red Lehr does more than "fart around" on his sousaphone. He sure plays better that most of the players I've been lucky enough to hear. He also plays faster than almost anyone I know of.
Throwing things at your horn could very well damage it. I would recomend treating it with respect and it will treat you well. And last, in my experience clean playing is more of a factor of the player than the horn.
Good luck, Phil

[MaryAnn]

All respect to GJones, perhaps, if you can afford a tuba, you can afford plane fare (to go to a major distributor and just play a variety of tubas...same advice we give to others with similar questions.) Otherwise since you know Bloke and he knows you, why not just buy what he recommends?

I certainly have no insight other than that, being totally not in your ball park.

MA, "resident squirt"

[Rick Denney]

Some of us need to loose the attitude and simply try to answer the questions. Suggesting someone not post on this board, no matter how cleverly it is suggested, is niether clever nor hospitable. There are actually some of us who have an informed, valuable opinion even if we haven't posted 3900 times here.

No need to be coy, Adam, you are talking about me. And you are probably right.

I wasn't trying to be clever, or inhospitable. I was trying to suggest that someone who is asking an extremely broadbanded question out of the blue might get a more useful response by 1.) being more forthcoming about what he wants, and 2.) by not insulting those who give him advice he doesn't like.

I'm sure I did a terrible job of conveying that.

Rick "with apologies to and hoping for the best for Mr. Jones" Denney

[Dean E]

. . . . Dark and rich is what I'm looking for but it has to be able to zip too. . . .

Who are the performers who make you happy? Is there one player whose recordings or live performances thrill you to the core? You named someone you don't care for, but how about a performer you love to hear over and over again?

I only ask because I've heard those thought-provoking questions asked at a master class. After the demonstrating student named a particular soloist, the presenter asked the student to play a passage like the soloist would play it. There seemed to be a noticeable improvement from the way the student played the passage before.

[MikeMason]

I gotta say,you really need to try the HOJO.It really rocks.I hear the front action valve one rocks even harder than the top action one I tried.I was expecting not to like it,but I was wrong...

[iiipopes]

"Zip" can be a function of a moderate to moderately shallow bowl-cupped mouthpiece providing quick response and more overtone development (albeit sometimes with the trade off as a bit of a loss of fundamental) as much as the instrument.

[Charlie Goodman]

I find it odd that there exists one singular tuba player who is simply too fast for most horns' valves. I've heard some pretty stellar players make do on horns that are apparently too mortal for this guy.

I'm also unconvinced that someone who's far too zippy for any old horn really should be demanding advice from the freak jury.

[Charlie Goodman]

Should I have?

[BriceT]

For a rotary horn I would go with the Mira 186 or 188. For a piston I would definitely take a look at the 1291/2. The one that I own is amazing in the low register. It is also very good in almost any situation which is what you are looking for. Good Luck with your search!

[NDSPTuba]

I know that I too have complained/bocked at some aggressive responses that to me seemed unwarranted. But, I have to remind myself that I used to frequent car forums for quite some time, and I have to tell you, the strongest of responses on here pale in comparison to the mundane on those ridiculous cars forums. The conversations on here are absolutely civil and scholarly in comparison. A difference I do appreciate greatly.

Even though I have played a 186 BBb and enjoyed it, even with my limited sampling size of instruments, and considering the large number of recommendations for a good do it all horn, I am still not seriously considering one for my first serious tuba purchase. I can't really put a finger on why, though some of Mr. Jones reasons are included.

[k001k47]

What's the BEST all around horn out there?

Thanks !

Find a mint 4/4 York.

Ultimately, it's up to the player to make the instrument great; I'd say find a nice Miraphone 186 or 188 CC.

[sloan]

'tis a poor workman, who blames his tool.

[tofu]

[SplatterTone]

'tis a poor workman, who blames his tool.

Very true.

It's the mouthpiece. Yes. The mouthpiece. If you don't have the perfect mouthpiece, all is lost.

[sloan]

'tis a poor workman, who blames his tool.

Very true.

It's the mouthpiece. Yes. The mouthpiece. If you don't have the perfect mouthpiece, all is lost.

The best, of couse, is a Bach 18.

[Onebaplayer]

I have a friend that I ask every time i see him (half joking) to sell his HB 2 to me for this very reason. It is the closest thing to a "plays itself" horn that I have ever played. I understand that this particular model is very inconsistent from horn to horn. The next closest to this that may be slightly more consistent is the B&S PT-606p. I played one while buying my current CC tuba at Custom Music and was pretty impressed with its agility. I prefer rotors usually, but this horn would be an exception to that preference.

As far as rotor response, replacing the clear softer rubber standard B&S bumpers on both my CC and F tubas to the black hard rubber bumpers I noticed a huge improvement in valve bounce. I've heard cork is even better but that it wears much more quickly. when trying to achieve faster valves, that'd be the first place i'd check (besides oil i guess)

[SplatterTone]

The best, of couse, is a Bach 18.

Although originally attributed to Bach, it has since been determined that this is actually a Kunau 18.

[Rick Denney]

See Rick, that's the thing, I don't think the original poster insulted anyone..and his comments didn't warrant the response he got. It seems to me he is confident in his ability and very serious about starting to play again. He may have phrased his questions in a way that was unique, but I didn't take offence at them.

The problem is the percentages. Most of the time, someone who claims ability doesn't have it. In fact, those who claim it are probably less likely to have it than those who don't. This is a common experience we all share. But it's a model, and all models are false, even if some are useful.

Look, the Miraphone 186 can peel paint. In that hands of someone who doesn't want to peel paint, it's the wrong tool. I didn't challenge him on that, and frankly most others didn't, either, even if they recommended it.

But there was the claim that it wasn't fast enough. It wasn't "I don't like the feel of the valves" or "I want valves with a crisper feel" (both of which I would agree with). So, I gave an example of a person known for lightning fast technique--perhaps the best such in the world on the tuba--who plays a rotary Miraphone. The response is then that the sound of that person is blarey. But the sound wasn't the reason for me bringing up that example. I also brought up an example of another person with a similar reputation for incredible technique, who plays a Besson with compensating piston valves. Those two valve choices probably encompass all the competently constructed valves in the industry, and yet they each serve the cause of lightning fast technique. I suggested that given those examples, maybe the request could not be answered, and I stand by that.

In terms of sound, everyone has their own taste and their own mental objective of what sound they want to produce. I don't know how anyone can answer that on a forum where we only have words, especially if word games are on the agenda for the discussion. I don't know anyone older than high-school, from humble community-band hobbyists to top pros, who ever wants to sound like they are farting around, at least when they are not joking around. As an example of a desired sound, that description is not helpful. But, if suggesting that other players are farting around is not an insult then I don't know the meaning of the word.

None of these discussion techniques have anything to say about the musical abilities of the discussants, and arguing against the use of those techniques is no insult to those musical abilities. That's not a matter of ego, either, and suggesting that it is, well, is a matter of ego.

In any case, Mr. Jones is a grownup and can defend himself if he wants to.

But I agree with you concerning the piling on, and I agree that if one of a few of the more active members first launches the attack, many others will pile on just because they sense that it's now an approved target. I agree with you that it should not be that way, and I regret being the example that was followed in this case.

Rick "who hopes Mr. Jones finds what he seeks" Denney

[gjones7777]

Here are 2 videos on Youtube that illustrate my point:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-jDld11 ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y75ryZC8LB0

Same piece of music, different results.

I played both videos for my girl friend and got the reaction I expected. She liked the 1st one but didn’t like the 2nd one, ESPECIALLY AFTER HEARING THE 1ST..... Quote " the 2nd one doesn't sound like the 1st one, it doesn't sound as good.."

What she was saying was, the 2nd performer's playing of the same piece was 'muddy' when compared to the 1st performer.

I'm not knocking the 2nd performer's ability, lord knows he's far better than me, but no matter who the player is, if it's music, it should SOUND GOOD, and if it doesn't, it's not good music.

Music is ideas and emotions that are conveyed to the audience through sounds. It is up to the performer to convey those ideas and emotions clearly to the listener. If he doesn't, then he doesn't make good music. It's like giving a lecture in a foreign language. You may be an expert on the subject but if no one understands you then you fail. And, if you present the lecture in a fashion that that is boring or offensive to the listener, then again you fail.

I think tuba players, like so many musicians, get caught up in playing tuba, and not playing music. We've all known at least one sax player that thought he was a virtuoso on sax because of how fast he could generate notes. But after the initial 'wow' we quickly became bored and even annoyed with his playing because that's all there was; just notes.

Music, is not how many notes you play, but how well you play the notes.

The problem I have with most European tubas is the sound. It has been my personal experience in the US and in Europe that most European tubas don't produce a pleasing sound. They tend to 'blat' easier than other instruments. The human ear 'knows what it knows'. Most people, especially classically trained musicians, complain about country music singers because they like to sing "Rrrrs". "Ahhhs" and "Ohhs" usually sound better to the ear than "Rrrrs". I'm looking for an "Oh" horn.

Secondly, many European tubas, not all, tend to "bounce" when changing notes. By "bounce" I mean they do not 'settle' on the next note as quickly as some other horns. The 2 videos listed above demonstrate this dramatically. I do not know either payer personally, and I don't believe the 1st player is a dramatically better musician than the 2nd one. I just think his performance is better, even though the 2nd one seems to try harder to entertain the audience, and after all, entertaining the listener is why we play for an audience isn't it?
I don't think the second musician is any less of a player than the first, I just think his horn takes longer to 'settle' on the notes and because they are both playing at roughly the same speed, the result is obvious. It's just not as 'clean'.....and that degrades the performance in my opinion.......and the opinion of the 'untrained ear' (your average listener) as well. i.e. my girlfriend.

Once again, thank you for all your opinions, and comments. All were helpful, especially the ones listing horn recomendations. There were several horns mentioned that I have not played and some I hadn't heard of.

Oh and someone asked why don't I just ask Bloke? Duh! Not only is he the only tuba player I will ever drive an hour to hear play dixieland, but he's the 1st person I ask about anything concerning tubas. But he works for a living and no longer has two dozen horns sitting around for me to try (dang it!) Life sure does get in the way of living sometimes!

Oh and IMHO, Bobo has the chops..or at least used to...but still not the best sound I've ever heard. A good sound, but there are better sounds still....