Hindemith question

[Wyvern]

Since he bothered to write "bastuba" on the sonata, it's safe to assume that's exactly what he meant.

Are we sure he personally wrote 'basstuba' and not his publisher - Has anyone seen the original manuscript?

[UDELBR]

me and my teacher researched this, he just had working knowledge of the instrument

It's been said that Hindemith wrote to his own technique on each instrument, which explains the simple tuba part in his Sonata.

[Mojo workin']

which explains the simple tuba part in his Sonata.

Relative to the piano part, yes. Though as was said before, it is one of the more musically challenging pieces in the solo rep.
Atleast 50 percent of the live performances I've heard of the third movement cadenza have been interpretively clueless. About another 25 percent not much better.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

me and my teacher researched this, he just had working knowledge of the instrument and was bedridden when he wrote the tuba sonata

Interesting nugget about him being bedridden...I can't find any reference to it in any of my research. He finished the sonata in January of 1955, in the middle of an active conducting schedule as far as what I have available says. Unfortunately, there aren't any published letters from around that time period in the collection by Geoffrey Skelton, and the Neumeyer text doesn't mention anything about Hindemith being sick around that time.

Source?

[JCalkin]

Mahler 2, 3 and 5 are marked 'Contrabasstuba', but I do not recall seeing the notation on music otherwise.

I think it is true that the specific tuba to use is largely at the discretion of the player.

I may or may not (wink wink) have a photocopy of Bruckner 7 in my office somewhere, and Bruckner has marked each of the four movements differently:

Mvt. 1: Baßtuba
Mvt. 2: Kontrabaßtuba
Mvt. 3: Baßtuba
Mvt. 4: Kontrabaßtuba

'Course I just play the whole thing on CC anyway...

[Jay Young]

Get a copy of this book, "The Tuba Family" by Clifford Bevan. A MUST read for anyone who's thinking of getting an advanced degree in tuba or euphonium.

The book will answer many questions.

[JCalkin]

I may or may not (wink wink) have a photocopy of Bruckner 7 in my office somewhere, and Bruckner has marked each of the four movements differently:

Mvt. 1: Baßtuba
Mvt. 2: Kontrabaßtuba
Mvt. 3: Baßtuba
Mvt. 4: Kontrabaßtuba

'Course I just play the whole thing on CC anyway...

So says me from a few weeks back....

How's this for a theory.....

Wagner specified Kontra-bass tuba for the Ring cycle for one reason and one reason only... There were already two (2) Bass tuba parts in the score..... Only later were these instruments to become known as "Wagner" tubas.... The score simply calls for two (2) Tenor Tubas in Bb, two (2) Bass tubas in F and one (1) Kontra-Bass tuba....

RC

Same applies for Bruckner 7..... There are of course Wagner Tubas in movements 2 & 4....

Which is what I figured, but why mark "Baßtuba" at the tops of the pages for mvts 1&3? Why not just mark "Kontrabaßtuba" on the whole thing and leave it at that? Is it just a question of the movements having been composed independently of one another?
In the German orchestral tradition, does "Tuba" equal "Baßtuba" except in the presence of a "Baßtuba" (Wagner tuba) in which case "tuba"="Kontrabaßtuba"?

To use different names on the same part on the same piece of music seems to dictate a changing of instrument, but then to use "Baßtuba" on both the tuba and Wagner tuba parts seems like an odd thing to do...

Having not see the wagner tuba parts specifically, what is the nomenclature Bruckner uses for that instrument?

[tubafatness]

me and my teacher researched this, he just had working knowledge of the instrument

It's been said that Hindemith wrote to his own technique on each instrument, which explains the simple tuba part in his Sonata.

That final lick at the end of the second movement is anything but easy.....

RC

I'll have to go with this opinion on the whole "The tuba part is easy/not easy" argument. That lick is nasty, (or, as I call it, "Holy hell, I give up" hard)

Aaron

[Wyvern]

To add on to this

Back in the late romantic era, did tubists have a BBb, an F and a French C tuba?

Most of these parts could be played on any of the 3 instruments, could this be an added effect

Back in those days, the tuba used would very much depended on the country where it was being performed. F tuba in Britain, small C in France and BBb in Russia for EVERTHING.

My understanding is that the exception was Germany where both F and BBb were used, with even two separate players sometimes being employed.

I don't recall reading that CC was in common use in any country back in the 19th century, although manuafactured by Cerveny from c1845. The adoption of CC in symphony orchestras seems more modern, largely as a result of the success of the famous CSO Yorks.

[Wyvern]

To add on to this

Back in the late romantic era, did tubists have a BBb, an F and a French C tuba?

Most of these parts could be played on any of the 3 instruments, could this be an added effect

The tuba used largely depended on the country, F in Britain, small c in France, BBb in Russia for EVERYTHING.

Only in Germany did they seem to use both F and BBb in orchestras, even then.

That is why I think we can get too hung up about what tuba to use. No doubt back then Tchaikovsky was performed on small c in France and Berlioz on BBb in Russia

[Paul Scott]

Did Hindemith specify bass tuba? My edition (Schott, 1957) simply reads "Sonate for Tuba and Piano." Likewise a 1982 article in the TUBA journal by Mark Nelson refers to the piece in the same way. And yet my 1996 edition of the Tuba Source Book does list the work as being for bass tuba. When was "bass tuba" added to the title?

This same article quotes a Dr. Giselher Schubert from the Hindemith Institute as saying the Sonate was writtten in a few days. It is also stated that this was not unusual for Hindemith as he always knew what he was going to write.

[MikeMason]

Concerning the Effie suite.I think it was written for Harvey Phillips who was known for doing everything on his smallish Conn CC.I also have heard that Effie refers to the range of the piece.From low f to high e.Wouldn't put any money on these facts though...

[eupher61]

That trill isn't impossible without a 5th valve. Ever heard of a lip trill, for one? Harvey's Conn (yes, the piece was written for Harvey Phillips, who probably played an F tuba 4 times in his life*!)
is a 4 valve.



(not a scientific statement)

[tubasound]

it's correct that there is a strong tradition in Austria and Germany concerning F and Bb Tubas. The F Tuba is normally quoted as Basstuba and the Bb as Kontrabasstuba. As I have studied in Vienna, 99 % of the solo pieces are played on the F, the Hindemith Sonata too.

Nowadays in big symphonies its almost common that the players change their tubas between movements or parts of movements.

I just played Mahlers 7th and I played the first and fifth movement on the Bb and the 2nd and 3rd on F. So its really depending on the individual player which instruments he uses for which part.

My Professor plays a Alexander F and C double tuba and has a really nice sound in the lower regions, therefore he only seldomly plays the big Bb whereas most of his students (me included) take the big one more often....

[jonesbrass]

I think after he was in america and such, that he had the contrabass tuba in mind for at least the first movement

German Rotary F- Pesante, FF, on a low Bb? I dont think yahamas were invented then to get rid of that stuffy low range

The german tuba players have been doing it for years on those "stuffy" low-range instruments. Perhaps the biggest problem is with the player?

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Also, the piece was written in 1943, though first published in 1955.

Incorrect. The piece was completed in January of 1955, and first published in 1957.

The best concrete is made by mixing 1 part cement, 2 parts dry sand, 3 parts dry stone, and 1/2 part water (by weight, not volume!). Some people like to put branches or twigs in it, but this lowers the strength of the final product.

[SplatterTone]

Some people like to put branches or twigs in it

Some people like to put people in it.

[eupher61]

no, the 1943 date has been proven erroneous. I don't have that information at hand, but the later date is correct.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

If you say so. But it was written in 1943. Thanks anyway!

I can give you at least 5 sources showing the 1955 date, one specifically stating the piece was completed in January of that year.

Selected Letters of Paul Hindemith, ed. Skelton (Yale Univ. Press, 1995)
The Music of Paul Hindemith, David Neumeyer (Yale Univ. Press, 1986)
Paul Hindemith: The Man Behind the Music, Geoffrey Skelton (Crescendo, 1975)
Paul Hindemith in the United States, Luther Noss (Univ. of Illinois Press, 1989)
Baker's Biographical Dictionary of Musicians

Also, as tuben pointed out, there is a great deal of information on Hindemith at www.hindemith.org - be sure to click the "English" link on the homepage unless you speak fluent German!

What source do you have that shows the sonata was written in 1943? Many of the sources I used point out that the tuba sonata was the last of the sonatas composed for the orchestral instruments and piano...much later than the trumpet and trombone sonatas (1939 and 1941).

[tubasound]

I happened to play an opera where a trautoniom takes part

Paul Dessau "Die Verurteilung des Lukullus", an, as it still was present, east-german composer.

The trautonium itself is something like an early form of the synthesizer invented by someone called Trautwein....