low c

[Rick Denney]

a) Is it not a problem for them, and americans just aren't used to F tubas (having all come from BBb or CC)?
or
b) What is their method for conquering this particular range?

a.) As several have pointed out, the F is their standard instrument, receiving the bulk of their daily practice. They probably think the contrabass feels weird on that note.

b.) I think using three words in the same sentence: "several", "hours", and "daily".

Rick "glad to see Jay posting, even if just a little" Denney

[tbn.al]

Now, some find that playing that same stuffy low C with fingerings using MORE valves suddenly makes the C better. Added resistance! It's common for German players to be taught this from the beginning. It's part of their "fingering vocabulary".

This makes all the more sense from a bass trombone perspective. Many bass trombonists used to prefer the 6th position low F to the trigger 1st. Ostensibly this was because of the added resistance of the valve. With the new low resistance valves this becomes a mute point. What is really happening I think is that the note has a more open feel due to the increase in bore through the trigger section. By playing it in 6th they keep the bore the same all the way down. My horn is so well balanced that I do not feel any difference whether the trigger is in or out.

[jonesbrass]

a) Is it not a problem for them, and americans just aren't used to F tubas (having all come from BBb or CC)?
or
b) What is their method for conquering this particular range?

a.) As several have pointed out, the F is their standard instrument, receiving the bulk of their daily practice. They probably think the contrabass feels weird on that note.

b.) I think using three words in the same sentence: "several", "hours", and "daily".

Rick "glad to see Jay posting, even if just a little" Denney

[Wyvern]

I tried out my M-W 182's low register, in particular that C and really cannot say there is a problem. It does lack some depth of tone and I would personally not choose an F to play much below the staff, but it does speak, even for someone like myself who is new to F tubas.

I tend to use my 182 specifically for higher register playing where it has a beautiful and unique singing voice

[Charlie Goodman]

I tried out my M-W 182's low register, in particular that C and really cannot say there is a problem. It does lack some depth of tone and I would personally not choose an F to play much below the staff, but it does speak, even for someone like myself who is new to F tubas.

I tend to use my 182 specifically for higher register playing where it has a beautiful and unique singing voice

Really? Never?

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Austria (German based nation)

Wow...don't ever let an Austrian hear you say that

[Wyvern]

I tried out my M-W 182's low register, in particular that C and really cannot say there is a problem. It does lack some depth of tone and I would personally not choose an F to play much below the staff, but it does speak, even for someone like myself who is new to F tubas.

I tend to use my 182 specifically for higher register playing where it has a beautiful and unique singing voice

Really? Never?

Really, Never what? If you are referring to low register - not by choice. I would pull out my Eb which has a much fuller low register.

For me the advantage of the F is its beautiful high register tone which an Eb just cannot match.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Well, Mozart is actually from Austria, yet is considered a German composer

By whom?

Additionally, Mozart's not the best composer to use for an example...his tuba parts are terrible.

[jeopardymaster]

My B&S has a dent right next to the 5th rotor, on the inside of the outside tube. Viewed from above, it's about 2 o'clock on the tube. Bob Tucci speculated that it may be in just the right place to smooth out a nodal point or two.

When that happened, the low range opened up instantly.

Hey, eupher - please post some pictures. Maybe someone would like to duplicate your happy dent on their F. Really - no snark intended. It might be worth some study!

[eupher61]

I'm trying to get a good picture. The main problem right now is getting a cable to get the picture onto the PC...

[iiipopes]

Sorry -- hangover from a prior life: the phrase is "moot point."

[MikeMason]

Thanks for the great info,insight,and opinions.The quickest of these ideas to pay off so far is the 125 fingering by Adam C.Immediately about 20-25% better.I plan on trying several of the other tips and exercises and will report my findings.

[tubeast]

As all of you know, I´m not a professional.
But I´m German, started on BBb, changed to F later, and ended up living and playing tuba (F and CC) in Austria. Maybe that counts as appropriate background to add comments to this thread.

When I got the F (I was a 22 year-old student of mechanical engineering back then) I made the transition from BBb to F on my own. I did notice the range below Eb to be, errm, different.
Very soon,I found myself practicing that range more than anything else. I used to be the only tuba in a 45 piece youth band, so for several years I was forced to play the BBb tuba part on the small horn.
My observation:
- F tubas have an incredible flexibility pitchwise in that range. Finger a C (4), buzz an Eb, and an Eb you´ll get.
- the "true" pitch seems to be close to the low end of that array of accessible frequencies, in that range.
- try to play the notes "too low" (as in : finger a Db, pretend to buzz a B), and chances are you´ll get it right.

This worked with me as well as both my beginning students.

[MikeMason]

I've noticed this to be true also.This fact is making me a bit nervous regarding using my f as a quintet horn.I'm used to laying a pretty solid foundation as far as pitch with my CC.It really pretty much steers me into the slot I need to be in.The f is great for matching others but that's not always the role of tuba in quintet.I think there is a lot to be learned in mastering the rotary f on many important fronts.That's one of the reason I'm pursuing it...

[eupher61]

This whole thing must be a factor of the German rotary design. Front piston (ok, side) Fs don't seem to have this problem, and certainly the Besson 3+1 doesn't.

As I said earlier in this thread, that little dent (picture still pending a stupid cable!) made all the difference in the world, in the C range. The other thing that helped on my B&S was getting the shank turned down a little bit, to better fit the stock receiver. This was 6-7 years after the dent opened the range, but getting the mpc in another 1/4" made a huge difference in the whole horn, made everything feel even more secure, top to bottom.

I use 125, 35, and 4 interchangeably, depending on how lazy I am. There may be the slightest difference in pitch, but none in response.

[tubeast]

regarding CC-tubas in Austria:

CC and Eb tubas are a No-No around here. When you go to the conservatory, definitely so.
I just happen to be a reckless part of the UNDERGROUND, not giving a **** and publically stating so.
A buddy of mine is playing Eb in the Montafon valley. I sure hope both of us aren´t going to end up in BBb-camps because of this post. I´ve said too much already. AAAArrrGH!!

[Wyvern]

So Austria allows CC tubas? Besides America and England, where are they used.

The barriers are disappearing. I was surprised to see a York style 6/4 CC being played in the Munich Philharmonic last year

[samulirask]

Right now I´m trying out two different tubas, Yamahas 822 and B&S:s 3099 (PT10). I already knew that Yamaha has a great "lowC"-register, but I was really surprised that PT10 works also very well down there. No matter how I try to blow them, high, low, soft or loud, the usual problem notes (B-C-Db-D) are very well on place.

Has B&S done some improvements on this instrument, or is it just this particular tuba? Or have I learned to play the notes better..?

[Wyvern]

Has B&S done some improvements on this instrument, or is it just this particular tuba? Or have I learned to play the notes better..?

Talking to Bob Tucci last year, I got the impression they are continually tweaking to improve the Perentucci models.