Core Sound

[k001k47]

I hope that by playing with "core", one achieves good intonation...but that's another subject altogether.
They say, "play with CORE" but really mean "Stop sounding so BAD" .
I'm joking.

To me, playing with core is playing with presence:
it's a sound that "fills" the room one plays in.

[MikeMason]

I'll agree with rocksanddirt.I can't completely express it in words ,but if you do enough listening,long tones in all ranges,buzzing exercises,slow intervals,and listening(to yourself as well as your hero),you will start to have it...and it is GOOD.

[imperialbari]

I can be a bit more specific:
The fairly strong presence of the 12th partial adds (at least to me) quite a bit of positive sophistication to the sound of the tuba. (As an example, this would be an 'F' 1-1/2 octaves above a "played" 'Bb'.)

That frequency being one and a half octaves above the basic sounding pitch, (again) it is difficult for me to encompass that particular characteristic (along with some others) while uttering or thinking of the word "core".

A most interesting specification, especially from a guy who has a daughter playing the oboe at a quite respectable professional level.

During my antediluvian college time one of our teachers made a course in sound sculpturing for all music students. It might be there that I got the information, that when the oboe sounds its tuning A, then that A=440Hz note it not the most prominent partial of the sound. Neither is the octave at 880Hz. E=1320Hz provides 45% of the acoustic energy emitted from that note nominally being at 440Hz.

This fits very well with bloke’s notion, as it is not really the 12th partial-function he hears. It is the octave-plus-a-fifth above the actually played note. Fifths in chords are known to carry through so well, that they easily are overdone. This fifth in the tuba sound is what makes the melodic component of the tuba line stand out. Good in solos and in complex bass lines like those that can be heard through the middle link in bloke’s signature.

By nature I am not too happy with the fifth-components of my sound being too prominent, when playing conical brasses, whereas they are a much more natural part of my desired trombone sound. I rather prefer the thirds in form of tenths and higher being part of my sound on euphonium and tuba.

What I may have done best as a musician has been to make “non-virtuoso“ amateur ensembles and choirs sound very good, far beyond their supposed technical skills. That is a matter of balance and intonation, two inseparable entities. Often I had to lead ensembles from a player’s seat, in brass contexts most often from a tenor or bass part. I found out how my sound influenced the general level of playing by the other players, so I worked on this rich-in-thirds sound. These inherent overtone thirds tend flattish compared to equal temperament, but they draw the actually played thirds towards the more desirable Pythagorean thirds in major chords.

But then even I have had to realize the benefits of the fifth component. 10 years back I bought my Yeo signature mouthpiece during a holiday in Copenhagen. Right back at home a sad task came upon me. A band fellow and former student had died from a brain tumor, and the widow wanted Amazing Grace played when the casket was carried out of the church. The band was in hiatus for the summer and only a tuba player and I were known to be sure partakers. So I wrote an utterly modular arrangement, which would work from 2 players through full band. In the end the full band showed up, which revealed, that I had undermanned the melody line. Hence I had to work harder on the euph, than I had expected.

My very good YEP-641 “letting” me down surprised me. It could not be the new mouthpiece, which was clearly better than the previous Schilke 60. And then. I had not come to adapt the Yeo to hold my usual mouthpiece weight, circa 100 gram of bronze from a ship’s engine nut. I very soon made the adapting, which is only about a tiny bit of plastic garden hose acting as a fitting around the upper stem. Back was the full carrying core sound with fifths and thirds. My theory is that the added weight cancels out the fluff, the not very strong out-of-scale upper overtones. (I once discussed such weights with Steven Mead. He does not like heavy mouthpieces exactly because that cancelled fluff, which he finds takes the richness out of the true euphonium sound and makes it more of a baritone).

In a brass band I had to shift from my Besson 981 Eb to my York Master BBb as the lone BBb (medium sized rotary Cerveny) went to work in the Middle East. Already the 981 was a better contrabass than the Cerveny, but the York Master, often the only tuba at rehearsals, was very good for the overall band intonation. I liked the sound with a PT-50 (enlarged backbore) and the same weight as for the euph. Yet I wanted a bit more clarity in the outlining of the bass melody. At an outdoors concert I found it by bringing my Conn 40K. Also very warm and full, but with this little bit of extra core, which I ascribe to the very heavy brass common in American pre-WWII basses. Unfortunately even the best of sousaphones are looked down at by the uninformed, which only have heard blatting sousaphones.

Which takes us back to bloke, who several years back wrote a TubeNet posting about his finding, that the old US-made BAT tubas were nothing but the best sousaphone models being wrapped back in tuba shape.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

[Art Hovey]

I have always been annoyed by the ways in which music educators try to use language to describe musical sounds, because I rarely have any idea of what they are talking about. "Talking about music is like dancing about chemical engineering."
Ask your teacher to demonstrate what "core sound" means.
Or else ask for recorded examples.

[sloan]

"Talking about music is like dancing about chemical engineering."

With all due respect: baloney.

Talking about music is like talking about chemical engineering. It isn't the same as actually doing it - but no one gets very good without it.

I think your complaint is that the people you don't understand are just very BAD at talking about music. I ignore as improbable the possibility that you are bad at listening...

See my earlier comment about whether you want Mickey Mantle or Billy Martin as your baseball coach.

Even if someone can demonstrate to you what "core" and "non-core" sounds like - if they can't explain it to you in words I submit that they don't really understand it. DOing and UNDERSTANDing are separate activities.

[rocksanddirt]

I don't disagree with sloan, but would posit that there are differnt types of understanding.

[sloan]

I had lesson like this a while ago where we were talking about using words to describe sound. My teacher said that words can evoke many different meanings and concepts in individuals; i.e dark may be a "good" word for someone but to someone else that could evoke the thought of muddy or flabby etc. So, usually if I have a question about something regarding tone or such I just have him show me, and I as a side note I learned more about "core" and "color" just listening to him play "row your boat" then any book. My favorite advice with a subject like this is "Play like Jake"

"good sound" is like pornography - I can't describe it, but I know it when I see it.

[TubaRay]

"good sound" is like pornography - I can't describe it, but I know it when I see it.

Let's see....Kenneth Sloan, Supreme Court...I seem to remember something about this. I can't quite remember....

[SplatterTone]

Lemme see if I understand this. Here is an edited snip of Hijazker Longa that Jared Ross posted a while back (pack rat that I am). Correct me if I am wrong, but my take on the discussion is that the snip starts out as moderately core-y gets real core-y at the end.
http://t-recs.net/mpegs/tubenet/jared_snip.mp3

[TMurphy]

Support with diaphragm - but open that throat like a sword-swallower. Those that play any other way are pinching off their sound, core sound or not!

1.) The diaphragm is an involuntary muscle--you cannot use it to provide support to your sound.

2.) You cannot "open" your throat. Your throat is never more "open" than it is when totally relaxed. Any attempts to physically open your throat result in tensing muscles in the neck and constricting the air way in some fashion.

I mean no disrespect or offense, but these are two very widespread misconceptions. Students are constantly told be teachers to do these things, and since both are physiologically impossible to do, students often develop some nasty habits trying to do what their teacher says.

As I see it, the keys to good tone production are good posture, a relaxed and free air flow (out AND in), and a clear and focused buzz at the mouthpiece. The last of those, I suspect, is what results in a "core" sound.

[willbrett]

I've been holding out on this one, but I'm drunk enough to bite... so here goes:

To me, (like others have said) a sound with a lot of "core" is one that fills a room, regardless of size, and regardless of dynamic marking. A ppp marking on the music should still be heard/felt by someone in the back corner of the balcony, right?

I think that a sound like this can only be learned by imitation... If you've never heard someone (first hand, not in recordings) play with a "world class sound", how can you possibly know how to play with one yourself? I don't care who your teacher is; if all they do is TELL you that you need to have more "core/root/openness/depth/structure" in your sound, you'll never achieve the intended sound.

I was lucky enough to rarely be 1st chair. Not in high school, and for a while in college. Yeah, I was Lucky... I was lucky because I sat directly next to some of the most outstanding tuba players I've ever met. They played directly into my ear, and I couldn't help but learn. (by the way, why do some sections have the best player pointing his/her bell away from the rest of the section? I've never understood this.) I learned how to sound like them, I learned how to play in tune with them, I learned how to articulate like them, and I learned how to breathe like them. Were it not for the OUTSTANDING players that I sat next to, I wouldn't be half the tuba player that I am today. I learned as much, if not more by sitting next to remarkable tuba players than I ever have from one on one lessons with great teachers.

I've also heard that Mr. Pokorny has commented on the genetic structure of the skull/sinus cavities has just as much to do with "SOUND" as anything else. Who am I to argue??? Maybe I'm an idiot...

All I know is this: I can't stand what I call a "nasaly/congested/constricted/thin/I have a toothache" sound.

Brett "who learned more by sitting 2nd chair than he ever did by sitting 1st chair" Williams

[Wyvern]

To me a good core sound is one which has color, definition and depth. Personally, I find to produce it requires good air support and an accurate buzz. It is a great feeling when successfully accomplished!

[pjv]

Nice, all the interest in creating a core sound; the references to using buzzing as one way to locate it, as well as references to the possible importance of bone structure and the benefits of accentuating the 5th or 6th partials.

Many of us use freebuzzing and mpc-buzzing not only as a way to improve our embouchure/sound/etc, but incorporate singing as well into the mix (if only for the sole benefit of improving our pitch/instrument relationship). Not too long ago, the well known trombone player and teacher Sam Burtis posted on this board, describing what for him was an embouchure breakthrough. In a nutshell, he added singing to his free-buzz/mpc/instrument routine...harmonic overtone singing. By isolating the desired partials in his voice and retaining this relationship to the freebuzz and/or mpc and/or horn, he feels that he's not only improved his sound, but improved his register, flexibility and endurance as well. A win-win-win situation. Unfortunately most of the Tubenetters that read the post started snowballing him and it got into a bit of a flame-war. (Any references to any part of Jacob's teaching concepts in anything less than a favorable light ON A TUBA BOARD is instant suicide.)

I've just recently started incorporating the harmonic singing into my routine as well. It does help me to localize the harmonics in ones head, making it easier to localize it on the horn. Time (and hard work) will tell whether or not I acquire the other holy grail attributes as well!

If interested, check out http://samburtis.com/2009/08/06/breakth ... e-i-think/" target="_blank

Cheers, Pat

[MileMarkerZero]

Having not read through all 4+ pages, I'll offer my thoughts, for whatever you want to pay for them...

To me it all comes down to the concept of tuba sound you have in your head.

When I think of "Core" in a sound, it means a sound that has been stripped of all the extraneous stuff that might come with it: no throat noise, no embochure pinching noise, no flabby embochure fuzz, none of that. Just pure, clean tuba sound. I really like Rick's (and Mr. Thornton's) concept of the torch flame being focussed down to the working point. But I would also add that there isn't any extraneous noise in the sound of the 16' or 32' pipe on a cathedral organ (at least there SHOULDN'T) be.

To me, "pure" and "core" are interchangeable.

[sloan]

To me, "pure" and "core" are interchangeable.

No overtones? None? at all?

[Rick Denney]

To me, "pure" and "core" are interchangeable.

No overtones? None? at all?

Plenty of overtones. Not so many inharmonic overtones.

Rick "a core-filled sound demands overtones" Denney

[sloan]

To me, "pure" and "core" are interchangeable.

No overtones? None? at all?

Plenty of overtones. Not so many inharmonic overtones.

Rick "a core-filled sound demands overtones" Denney

Well, I agree - but look again at the OP's definition.

[Donn]

you are correct, but

... you are all correct!

This reminds me a little of the Texas "buttercup", a flower which not only is not particularly reminiscent of what the rest of the world knows as a buttercup, it rather weirdly is pink. You may or may not be able to teach an individual Texan better, but for practical purposes the most useful thing is to know that people who utter the word "buttercup" with a Texas accent mean "evening primrose."

I said only that it reminds me. The present case really isn't so similar: we don't have a clue what this Texan meant. (Or Louisiana-an, however you say that.) The best we can do is "if I were teaching someone to play the tuba better, and the phrase `core sound' came out of my mouth, what would it mean?" I guess the preceding 4 pages of speculation suggests that really it would be better to keep that phrase to yourself, and instead deploy a device that can present a spectral analysis of your tone. Then when the next teacher encourages your student to emphasize the 10th and related partials, he or she can protest that you've taught to emphasize the 12th partial, and all your teaching won't be just undone because of the student's dependence on completely ambiguous terminology.

[Rick Denney]

...The best we can do is "if I were teaching someone to play the tuba better, and the phrase `core sound' came out of my mouth, what would it mean?" I guess the preceding 4 pages of speculation suggests that really it would be better to keep that phrase to yourself, and instead deploy a device that can present a spectral analysis of your tone. Then when the next teacher encourages your student to emphasize the 10th and related partials, he or she can protest that you've taught to emphasize the 12th partial, and all your teaching won't be just undone because of the student's dependence on completely ambiguous terminology.

Were I to ask a teacher to explain good sound, I would expect him to pick up his instrument, demonstrate it, and say, "that".

But if I ask a teacher how I might make a good sound, I would expect him to suggest what I might do, rather than what words he might use to describe the result.

In a forum, on the other hand, we only have words, so we play games--mostly for fun--with their meaning and definition. No actual tubas were damaged (or even taken out of their cases) in the process.

Rick "not confusing Tubenet with teaching" Denney