German Kaiser arrived, HORNPORN !!!!!

[oedipoes]

That 1500EUR might be useful to spent on a new horn in a couple of years.

I suspect that after playing that Kaiser a couple years and getting accustomed to the broad tones, you will not be satisfied with anything less than a Fafner for a 'new horn'

Yip. A Fafner would be great. Or a Rudy... although I might be retired by the time I could buy one... (and I'm only 27 now). Maybe second-hand.
Would I be less satisfied with the Cerveny 701 kaiser as my only horn? Less than with a Fafner or a Rudy? They cost exactly half of what a Fafner is. How come?

I'm still comparing the american-style horns with the german-style. I was very much attracted to both the Rudy 5/4 and the Willson 3100FA-5. But it is very hard to compare horns that are each other's oppostites. Piston-rotary, american style -german style, ...

Lucky me, I have some time left before I have the money to buy one, I hope to have decided by then...
But in the mean time, I'll enjoy this kaiser.

Wim

[Wyvern]

Would I be less satisfied with the Cerveny 701 kaiser as my only horn? Less than with a Fafner or a Rudy? They cost exactly half of what a Fafner is. How come?

I just mentioned the Fafner as the calibre of new tuba you would need to ever satisfactory update from your beautiful old Kaiser. However, I think you would very much enjoy a Cerveny 701 too! Although half the price, the 701 gives every indication of being hand-made, so should really be compared to the 195/2 Fafner

[oedipoes]

Would I be less satisfied with the Cerveny 701 kaiser as my only horn? Less than with a Fafner or a Rudy? They cost exactly half of what a Fafner is. How come?

I just mentioned the Fafner as the calibre of new tuba you would need to ever satisfactory update from your beautiful old Kaiser. However, I think you would very much enjoy a Cerveny 701 too! Although half the price, the 701 gives every indication of being hand-made, so should really be compared to the 195/2 Fafner

A 195/2 ? Wow, that makes almost three Cerveny's for one Melton !!
I must investigate the difference further on one of the next Frankfurt shows. For that price difference, there must be something different, apart from the country of origin. Or is the brand the only price - making factor?

I was also thinking by myself what the lucky first owner of this horn must have payed for it, converted into 2009 currencies..., I think he must have been a wealthy person (well, before he bought the horn that is )

Wim

[Wyvern]

Wim, Just to elaborate a little. The sheet joints are clearly visible on the red brass of the 701 which makes me think it is a hand made job.

If you are going to Frankfurt in April drop me a PM and maybe we can meet up. I am hoping to get there!

[oedipoes]

Like Klaus requested in another topic about helicons, you will find my question to the markneukirchen instrument museum forum below.
I requested if they had a clue about the manufacturer of my Kaiser.
The answer is below too. Train your German or ask me.

Wim
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hallo,

Diese tuba hat keine Gravuren oder Seriennummer. Der Verkaufer sagt: "Vermutlich Bohland&Fuchs"
Ich kan nur Fotos Schauen. Auf Folgende Link:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=31671&start=0" target="_blank" target="_blank
Wer war der Hersteller ?

Vielen Dank,

Wim

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mario Weller Betreff des Beitrags: Re: Wer kann diese Tuba IdentifizierenVerfasst: Mo 26. Jan 2009, 23:07


Metallblasinstrumentenbaumeister

Registriert: So 08. Apr 2007, 16:25
Beiträge: 76
Wohnort: Markneukirchen Hallo wimleplae.

Vielen Dank für Ihre Anfrage. Ich sah diese Tuba auch schon im Internet, bei dem Autionshaus mit den vier Buchstaben. Trotz guter Detailfotos kann ich Ihnen leider keine 100%ige Antwort geben. Mit der Vermutung, die Tuba stamme von der Graslitzer Firma "Bohland & Fuchs" könnte ich mich aber sehr wohl anfreunden. Einige Details lassen durchaus diesen Schluss zu. So z.B. die Stützen zwischen Stimmbogen und 1. Anstoß. Auch die "Rohr-Stütze" im Stimmzug wurde so auch von Bohland & Fuchs gebaut (z.B. konnte ich selbe Bauart auch in Tenorhörnern und sogar in Zylindertrompeten sehen). Die 4-ventilige Bauart, mit "querliegendem" Stimmzug baute aber damals fast jede Firma, so dass die Zuordnung zu einem konkreten Hersteller daran nicht fest gemacht werden sollte. Auch der verwendete Messing-Gusskamm auf dem Bügel wurde sowohl von B & F als auch von vielen weiteren Firmen verwendet. Die doch sehr aufwendigen Gravuren auf dem Druckwerk und den Schraubdeckeln sprechen wiederum auch für Bohland & Fuchs, jedoch wurde diese Art der Verschönerung auch von anderen Graslitzer (sowie Vogtländischen) Firmen verwendet.

Fazit: Eine schöne Tuba, ohne Frage. Aber diese Anhand von guten Fotos sowie von Details B & F zuzuschreiben, ist gewagt. Dazu müßte die Tuba komplett vermessen und in fast allen Details / Maßen mit vorhandenen Original-Tuben z.B. von Bohland & Fuchs verglichen werden.


Mit freundlichen Grüßen Mario Weller

[imperialbari]

This German brass master craftsman emphasizes that it will takes very exact measurements and comparissons with established B&F samples to tell this tuba being a B&F. This design pattern was used by several Bohemian and Saxonian makers.

As an owner/collector it is nice to know the origins, but with the era and the area being rather obvious plus the ornaments pointing towards high-end I wouldn’t worry too much. The general quality was high.

Klaus, who thinks the same of the Riedl and Kruspe instruments currently discussed

[oedipoes]

I asked if they had a clue about date of manufacture.
It seems like Stowasser is also a possible manufacturer of this tuba.

---------------------------------------------
Vielen Dank für Ihre Kommentar.
Ich bin der kaufer diesere schöne Tuba, ich kann schon sagen dass der Klang super ist !

Ist auch die Älter bekannt aus die Bilder, oder sind Tubas in dieser Ausführung (Schallbecher) lange Zeit in Produktion gewesen?

Vielen Dank und grüssen,

Wim

--------------------------------------
Mario Weller


Metallblasinstrumentenbaumeister

Joined: Sun 08. Apr 2007, 16:25
Posts: 81
Location: Markneukirchen Hallo wimleplae.

Ihre Tuba wurde sicherlich, sollte es sich tatsächlich um ein Instrument von Bohland & Fuchs handeln, vor 1945 gebaut. Ein von mir auch dieser Firma zugeschriebenes Detail (die Stütze zwischen Stimmzug und 1. Anstoß) wurde aber in dieser Ausführung auch von der Graslitzer Firma Stowasser's Söhne gefertigt. So denke ich, kommt eine weiteres ehemals großes Werk als Hersteller in die nähere Auswahl....

Die Bauart Ihrer Tuba ist eine sehr verbreitete, d.h., diese B-Zylinderventiltuba wird bis zum heutigen Tage eingentlich noch in selber Form hergestellt.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen Mario Weller

[jameseuph642]

Nice sample of an old German Kaiser. Enjoy it!!!

[Wyvern]

Wim, Out of interest is your old Kaiser heavy, or quite light in weight?

I was really surprised at how light was one old Kaiser I tried.

[oedipoes]

Wim, Out of interest is your old Kaiser heavy, or quite light in weight?

I was really surprised at how light was one old Kaiser I tried.

I thought it to be much lighter than my Yama YBB321. However, I did not weigh it. Will do that if it gets back from the shop.
It's the kind of lightness I have seen before on Hirsbrunners, and has to do (I guess) with the fact that its bows are hand-made out of thin sheetmetal in stead of hydraulically inflated bent tubing. Also the bell being made as shown in my pictures (triangular seam) will have its impact.
The Willson I tried in Frankfurt was much heavier in comparison.

The lightness of bell and bows is also probably the reason why my kaiser has been dented so badly.
The yamaha appears to be made student-proof, with all that reinforcements. It's full of dents, but nothing really bad. (I had the worst removed last year).

The thin metal of the kaiser is probably also the reason why the sound is so broad and warm.

Wim

[oedipoes]

Wim, Out of interest is your old Kaiser heavy, or quite light in weight?

I was really surprised at how light was one old Kaiser I tried.

There we are again, the kaiser is back !!! (from the repair shop)

The valves are whispering smoooooooothly and the sound is sooooooo nice.
Man, I love this tuba ! It looks like it could eat the yamaha 321 !

oh, and Jonathan, FYI, it weighs 10,4 kg. You'll probably figure it out yourself what that is in one of those medieval - imperial units ?

honk honk

wim

biiiiiiiiiiig smile

[SinNawlins]

It is really a cool horn. Good luck. Let us know how the repairs go. It looks pretty dent free for a horn that old.

Don't walk though too many doorways while playing that!!

[imperialbari]

dorn has to be documented visually, so where are the pics?

K

[Wyvern]

oh, and Jonathan, FYI, it weighs 10,4 kg

Light for a Kaiser! The Cerveny weighs 11,2 kg and that is considerable lighter than my Neptune.

[oedipoes]

dorn has to be documented visually, so where are the pics?

K

well, I could make some new pictures, but it looks exactly the same now as on my first post. Only now the tubes move freely and the valves run smoothly. The 'ring' in the sound has gone away.
I tried it in our band last night and it worked ok. The rotary valves take some time for getting used to, but I like the sound.
However, I think with that narrow bell, a larger orchestra would not work.

wim

[Wyvern]

well, I could make some new pictures, but it looks exactly the same now as on my first post. Only now the tubes move freely and the valves run smoothly. The 'ring' in the sound has gone away.
I tried it in our band last night and it worked ok. The rotary valves take some time for getting used to, but I like the sound.
However, I think with that narrow bell, a larger orchestra would not work.

Have you not had that big dent in the bottom bow by main tuning slide taken out? Could be done at least partially quite inexpensively with magnets I would have thought?

Why do you not think it would work with larger orchestra Wim? Not big enough sound?

[oedipoes]

well, I could make some new pictures, but it looks exactly the same now as on my first post. Only now the tubes move freely and the valves run smoothly. The 'ring' in the sound has gone away.
I tried it in our band last night and it worked ok. The rotary valves take some time for getting used to, but I like the sound.
However, I think with that narrow bell, a larger orchestra would not work.

Have you not had that big dent in the bottom bow by main tuning slide taken out? Could be done at least partially quite inexpensively with magnets I would have thought?

Why do you not think it would work with larger orchestra Wim? Not big enough sound?

I had that particular dent removed actually, together with some wrinkles on the bell.
The wrinkles under the silver bell garland are still there, for economic reasons .
ok ok, I'll put up some more photographs, you tuba-addicts.

About the orchestra thing, well, it's a first impression. The sound is quite different from the yamaha I'm used to, and the sound reaches my brains from the other side now. (for the first time in 27 years) I had the impression that the sound is quite focussed, but I'm not sure. The band master said it sounded pretty much in tune, and that's about the best you can reach in his scale of in-tuneness !
I think a larger bell would make the sound more fundamental, more support under the band. But it can sound so much different to an audience than to yourself.
But I will firstly have to get used to the larger bore and different airflow.

Wim

[Wyvern]

But it can sound so much different to an audience than to yourself.
But I will firstly have to get used to the larger bore and different airflow.

Yes, it can sound quite different out front. When I first heard recording of my Cerveny Kaiser I was pleasantly surprised at how it projects. My perception was that the tone is so broad it would get covered, but not so at all.

For the blowing and air flow, you have got to get used to sitting back and let the tuba do the work. Kaisers do not need 'pushing' like one is used to with a smaller tubas.

Enjoy its no doubt great sound!

[oedipoes]

dorn has to be documented visually, so where are the pics?

K

[oedipoes]

more pics