I've seen this story before...

The bulk of the musical talk
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TexTuba
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Re: I've seen this story before...

Post by TexTuba »

goodgigs wrote:This story pisses me off to the point of extreme violence. Yes, I would stuff that violin up his you know where.
This "experiment" proves only that you can manipulate such social experiments to mach whatever outcome (agenda) you want to see.
Oh I guess I forgot! Classical music is sooooo important that we should all stop whatever we are doing to here it.

Why I'm pissed is simply that the people who went by are now permanently regarded as "statistics" and what ever motivation
was assigned to them to explain their behavior is considered FACT and indisputable.

My dad was a prison warden who also taught sociology. He told me," sociology in a lot of whooie. To make it a science there
would have a measuring stick to measure us all against, but the only perfect person died about 2000 years ago."
I want all you tubenetters to remember this "experiment" (and the conclusions drawn) every time you here a public opinion poll.

The only cure for 1984 is 1776 !
You're missing the point, Brian. It's not about classical music. It's about taking a second to get off of the hamster wheel and appreciating the beauty around you. Are we, as a society, so busy that we can't stop for a second and enjoy music that is appealing to our ears? I always hear people at work say, "It's such a beautiful day and I'm stuck in here." Yet, when their shift is done, they do nothing but go home! (I can say that last sentence because I usually ask what they did.)

This story poses bigger issues than this. Those who only see the story at the surface are missing the bigger questions.
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Re: I've seen this story before...

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TexTuba
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Re: I've seen this story before...

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OOMPAH wrote:Rubbish - this is sonic assault - your rights end where the other fellows nose/ear begins - some see no beauty in classical music - some consider it crap - some think it is being foisted upon the "uneducated public" by some snoots who feel superior to joe public. Why didn't they use a Rap group and see if folks stopped?
Sonic assault? :roll:
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Re: I've seen this story before...

Post by Donn »

TexTuba wrote: Sonic assault?
What's all this fuss I hear about random violins perpetrated on folks who were just trying to get a train on the subway?
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Re: I've seen this story before...

Post by pgym »

Donn wrote:
TexTuba wrote: Sonic assault?
What's all this fuss I hear about random violins perpetrated on folks who were just trying to get a train on the subway?
So people don't stop to watch acts of violins. Big deal.

Work or now work, I'll bet they'd stop for free aural sax.
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Re: I've seen this story before...

Post by windshieldbug »

Donn wrote:
TexTuba wrote: Sonic assault?
What's all this fuss I hear about random violins perpetrated on folks who were just trying to get a train on the subway?
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Re: I've seen this story before...

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Mr. Faber - you certainly ask a lot of questions for someone from New Jersey!
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Re: I've seen this story before...

Post by Virtuoso »

As someone who has sat on a street corner with his instruments before (twice), I can say that what this guy got in forty five minutes is pretty astounding. They make it sound like it's lousy, but for the venue it's incredible. The most I made was from a 6 hour stint and that was just under 60 bucks.
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Re: I've seen this story before...

Post by k001k47 »

Everyone is flaming this story saying the violin playing is out of place and nobody would have the time to stop and listen anyway.

I like what the story presents: we're always way too busy to stop and enjoy the simple pleasures in life.
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Re: I've seen this story before...

Post by Dean E »

I have an experience to contrast with the Bell story.

Many years ago on a bright, summer, early Sunday morning I took my three young children to Chicago's Maxwell Street market, a sprawling, historic, mixed use, flea market/thieves market in a (then) bad part of town. We stood around in the dirt listening and watching, for probably an hour, obviously talented, and probably addicted, sleepless, hung over, guitarists and vocalists singing, playing, and dancing to authentic, improvised, Chicago style blues.

Someone had run a long extension cord about 75 yards or so to the closest building with electrical power. There was a cheapo, kids' model Peavey amp for the guitars--little sound power but lots of distortion.

That was a wonderful musical and cultural experience that we will never forget. I'm sure there is a tradition of similar musical opportunities on Beale Street and in the French Quarter.

I googled and immediately found this link with historic Maxwell Street photos and music:
MAXWELL BLUES; http://www.maxwellblues.com/" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

I'd be interested in some feedback to learn how many Tubenetters and guests took the time from their busy schedules to appreciate the world class talent of Maxwell Street. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
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Re: I've seen this story before...

Post by tofu »

Dean E wrote:

I'd be interested in some feedback to learn how many Tubenetters and guests took the time from their busy schedules to appreciate the world class talent of Maxwell Street. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
My dad loved jazz and the blues and he took us young kids down there all the time (plus he loved a bargain and the food) and he also took us to a lot of the blues clubs on the south side. But that's the thing - we went expecting it and on our time if you will. It wasn't thrust upon us at a time or place where you don't want to dilly-dally for a lot of reasons. I bet if Mr. Bell had played in Central Park in NY or say Grant Park in Chicago on a nice summer day folks would have stopped to listen. I think there is a difference in taking time during a busy day between doing it while in transit on mass transit or taking time during the normal course of a busy day to take in the beauty of a performance.

I think I get the premise of their question I just think they went about finding the answer in a fashion that would gurantee the outcome that they were looking for which was to prove that few folks would stop and listen.
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Re: I've seen this story before...

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tofu wrote: I think I get the premise of their question I just think they went about finding the answer in a fashion that would gurantee the outcome that they were looking for which was to prove that few folks would stop and listen.
Well, to look at it from the other direction ... suppose they did take the guy out to Central Park, what would have been gained? If people didn't listen there, then you'd be looking at questions about musical taste, etc., because it's clearly about whether he went over well with that crowd. That's kind of a depressing angle, don't you think? - to go out, looking for that possibility - and in Mr. Bell's place I think I would have declined.

An article like this may use the expression "experiment", but it isn't a Science Experiment. Scientists don't read the Washington Post for ground breaking social science experiments conducted by the reporters. The point of the experiment was to get an article, the point of the article is to get people to read, and think, and tell other people to read that article, etc. We're all here to testify that it worked. Whether you get anything useful out of it is largely up to you.
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Re: I've seen this story before...

Post by tofu »

Donn wrote:
An article like this may use the expression "experiment", but it isn't a Science Experiment. Scientists don't read the Washington Post for ground breaking social science experiments conducted by the reporters. The point of the experiment was to get an article, the point of the article is to get people to read, and think, and tell other people to read that article, etc. We're all here to testify that it worked. Whether you get anything useful out of it is largely up to you.
Nah - it's just cynical jaded junk journalism.
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Re: I've seen this story before...

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I will take no personal responsibility for failed students of sociology ending up as libertarian thrifters.

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Re: I've seen this story before...

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How long is this flight? :P
Carpe filum (seize the thread!)
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Re: I've seen this story before...

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bloke wrote:
I must completely agree with the point that sociology is a lot of whooie. It is a faux science that was primarily created by three men

- Max Weber
- Émile Durkheim
- Karl Marx

to push an all-too-obvious and devastatingly-destructive agenda.

Moreover, the "study" of "sociology" is, arguably, THE most toxic discipline that has been shoehorned into American (as well as worldwide) colleges and universities. Impressionable "blank slates" (via their hapless parents) enter into these classes with reasonably sane thought processes and exit these courses of study replete with mental disorders. If you doubt this in the least (and happen to live in a university town), just keep your eyes open for letters to the editor in your newspaper sent in by sociology major graduate students who are eagerly trying out their newly-found wings of misplaced anger and insanity.
Well said!
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Re: I've seen this story before...

Post by tubaguy9 »

bloke wrote:Another mentor said, *"The communists and socialists forget that our basic nature is to be both selfish and altruistic -- not just altruistic -- and the challenge is to find the right balance between the two."
Way too true...I think that's what people are trying to find in this world. I think when you can finally find the happy medium instated by the government of a country, you will have an almost Utopian society. I don't think any country really has found how to really instate this idea. And I don't know if there really is such a way, because every person is different and to cater to every person in a country is impossible. Because there are near 7,000,000,000 people in the world, divided by MAYBE 1,000 countries, if it was divided evenly, that'd mean 7,000,000 per country. It'd be impossible to watch every person and keep them happy at the same time.
I think I might end up as a grumpy old man when I get old...
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Re: I've seen this story before...

Post by Rick Denney »

tubaguy9 wrote:It'd be impossible to watch every person and keep them happy at the same time.
The keeping them happy part is the impossible bit. Watching them is much easier.

But happiness is up to each person. History abounds with examples of people who were happy in desperate conditions, and with people who are miserable in the face of abundance. But history is also replete with those who manage to be happy even when rich, and other who are poor and miserable. The only conclusion one can draw is that happiness is ultimately unrelated to wealth.

This is a popular point for those who want to increase what is taken from those who are rich (by whatever means). They insist that those riches are not the key to happiness, and therefore not a right of those who have attained them. I've heard a number of stories on NPR lately emphasizing this point. But then they prove just how much they disbelieve that argument by giving those riches to the poor, some of whom were happy without it and some who will still be miserable with it. They declare that some minimum standard of wealth is necessary to free a person to pursue happiness, but in fact they keep raising that standard higher and higher, again demonstrating that they don't really believe their own thesis that happiness and wealth are unrelated. When people they define as too poverty-stricken to be able to pursue happiness have stomachs full to overflowing, cars, color televisions, cell phones, clean running water, sewer service, air conditioning, and the sorts of luxuries that would be considered obscene wealth in many parts of the world, one has to suspect that their motive is different than what they say it is.

Accomplishment brings a sense of satisfaction that is a common characteristic among happy people. People are happier when they feel as though their life makes a difference, and unhappy when they feel disempowered to make a difference. (It should be noted that this is true whether they actually want to make a difference or not, leading to the inescapable conclusion that many people just want to be unhappy.) Taking wealth from some and giving it to others tells the former group that their accomplishment has no value and tells the latter than the wealth they are about to receive requires no accomplishment. This undermines the motivation and sense of accomplishment of both groups. If there is one thing that emerges from the communist experiments of the last 100 years, it is that "from each according to his abilities, and to each according to his needs" is a recipe for misery and poverty (enforced by totalitarian statism).

The only conclusion I can draw is that people are responsible for their own happiness. As anyone who has been in a mismatched relationship can tell you, you can't make someone else happy. The more you try, the more it doesn't work and the more likely both will end up unhappy. Government tries hard to make people happy, instead of empowering them to pursue their own happiness and then leaving them alone. This was where the founders truly understood the human condition. They believed that government's role was to get out of the way and let people attain happiness according to their own definition--or not--as they chose.

As soon as we try to make other people happy, the first thing that happens is that we are defining their happiness for them, according to our own definition. And given that happiness defies definition based on circumstances, and given that circumstances are the only thing we can change, we are doomed to fail ultimately. But that failure can take other things down with it, including our ability and drive (perhaps based on necessity) to create more wealth. The people we are trying to make happy end up still unhappy, and the rich people we expected to pay for it merely ended up less rich and less motivated to continue funding our program.

Imposing art on the unartistic is one example. Many people find that art, both as creators and as receivers, is a key part of their own happiness formula. Some of those people believe that because it works for them, it will work for everyone, so they seek to impose mechanisms by which art becomes institutionalized and forced onto the masses. This is a form of paternalism that is actually quite arrogant, based as it is on the notion that the "cultured" who demand it believe that culture causes culture, rather than culture being the outgrowth of wealth, general education, and the pursuit of happiness. Not even Joshua Bell can make people like a violin performance of Bach, let alone force them to stop to listen to it when they are in the middle of fulfilling other responsibilities. Using that as an excuse to demean those people as unable to appreciate beauty is another example of that paternalistic arrogance.

Rick "end of rant" Denney
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Re: I've seen this story before...

Post by windshieldbug »

Rick Denney wrote:Imposing art on the [inartistic] is one example.
I, for one, think it is simpler than this. Art requires communication and communication at the height of a rush hour is damn near impossible. The ability of the intended "recipients" to comprehend it doesn't even enter into it.

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Not at all. (as he goes) Stupid git.
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Re: I've seen this story before...

Post by Donn »

(Trying to ignore the lengthy exposition of blokesian `every man for himself' suburban politics ...)
Rick Denney wrote: Imposing art on the unartistic is one example. Many people find that art, both as creators and as receivers, is a key part of their own happiness formula. Some of those people believe that because it works for them, it will work for everyone, so they seek to impose mechanisms by which art becomes institutionalized and forced onto the masses. This is a form of paternalism that is actually quite arrogant, based as it is on the notion that the "cultured" who demand it believe that culture causes culture, rather than culture being the outgrowth of wealth, general education, and the pursuit of happiness. Not even Joshua Bell can make people like a violin performance of Bach, let alone force them to stop to listen to it when they are in the middle of fulfilling other responsibilities. Using that as an excuse to demean those people as unable to appreciate beauty is another example of that paternalistic arrogance.
My guess is that they picked the Bach violin partitas hoping that they would be universally appealing - not pop, but pretty accessible. To newspaper readers, at any rate - I mean, if you read the article and think `glad I wasn't there, to have those arrogant _____s force Bach partitas down my throat!', then you're not reading it the way most did, I think.

It's too bad it takes so long for people to work up a head of outrage over this supposed arrogance. If the reporter could have interviewed a few people and gotten stuff like this out of them, I'm sure it would have been an even more entertaining article, but unfortunately it seems one has to stew over the ill-treatment of the poor subway commuters for some time before this resentment finds expression.
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