6/4 Tubas

[UDELBR]

Yo fellas: weren't you guys told to hold the irrelevant remarks?? Sheesh!

[Z-Tuba Dude]

If one wants a Chicago York style production tuba that is available now, the only choice is the Walter Nirschl 6/4 York copy.....

Are the Nirschl 6/4's considered to be more "authentic" sounding York copies, than the Yorkbrunners are?

I know that the Yorkbrunner I have played, has a wonderful sound, but I have never heard the Chicago Yorks in person.

[scottmendoker]

Hi -
In my lifetime, so far, I've owned 2 YorkBrunners, a Rusk-cut Holton, a Rusk-cut York and 2 Nirschl-Yorks. (and those are only the 6/4s!!!?)I started studying with Arnold Jacobs in 1974 and had the opportunity to play BOTH CSO Yorks over the years. Actually, I still get a chance, on occasion, and take advantage of it.
The reason I had purchased those instruments was to own something close to the York that Gene plays now in the CSO. I've come close a couple of times..............but here's my point. As everyone has said, there are great 6/4 instruments out there for sale, but, more importantly, you have to understand that you won't sound like Mr. Jacobs or Gene just because you have an instrument that looks like what they play(ed). Gene is a wonderful example of this. He sounds VERY different from Mr. Jacobs and plays on the same equipment.
If you want to find an instrument that's easy to play and has the 6/4 decible level and depth of sound, that's another thing all together. In my opinion, which isn't worth all that much, stay away from the Holton and look at the Gronitz, or, if you have the $$$, Kyle Turner's Nirschl for sale.

Good luck!!

Scott Mendoker

[UDELBR]

... and perhaps a couple of hundred Nirschl copies in CC.

I'd be surprised if it was that many. Mine was number 24, and that was five years ago.

[vmi5198]

I bought a VMI 5198 piston, one out of 3 in the store, and I love it! It is quite versatile in sound, and got a lot of good comments from a Tchaik No. 6 performance. Smooth sound, with presence. I also tried the only HB Grand at Custom, and was not pleased with the tuning at all.

Just try a couple of VMI's... you will know then!

[Dylan King]

My Yorkbrunner is by far the best CC tuba I have evr played. I have tried Gene's York and his Yorkbrunner and didn't like them quite as much as mine. I hear they are much more consistent now the Hirsbrunner manufactures part for them. There isn't anything that plays and sounds quite like a BAT, but they aren't for everyone.

I have been doing a lot of recordings lately and have found that the Yorkbrunner sounds great, but the mic has to be placed way above the bell to get the full range of the BAT sound, since it spreads out so much. I just purchased a Yamaha 621 F tuba and am selling my Rudy F. There is so much to play with when recording. I never thought that my two main tubas would end up being the biggest, and the smallest tubas available. The Yorkbrunner gives me that huge sound with beautiful vibrato if i want it, and fills the mic when composers are looking for that "big hollywood sound". I got the Yamaha so I can have a tuba that can handle anything technical and high, and yet still pop out the low register when it comes up.

I think I was also getting tired of carrying the Yorkbrunner around all the time. That thing is heavy. Now I have a horn I can fit in my watch pocket and take to the wilderness with me when I see the abomination of desolation in Jerusalem.

[Alex C]

"Do these instruments automatically do the fp--vibrato-- thing that I've heard the "Chicago-York" do on my old l.p.'s?"

Mr. Jacobs' vibrato and attack are products of his artistry. It is often refered to it in a derogatory manner.

Some tubists believe orchestral playing is straight tone without vibrato and they are certainly welcome to that widely accepted approach. I always enjoyed the artistry that Mr. Jacobs presented in those CSO recordings. As Roger Dettmer said, the CSO "is the only orchestra in the world where the tuba makes as much music as the oboe."

Listening to the CSO recording of Alexander Nevesky and Lt. Kjie opened my musical eyes over two decades ago. I'm sure it does the same thing for others today. Many people want to sound like Mr. Jacobs but you must be willing to try something new.

It's disappointing to still see this approach still misunderstood.

[Alex C]

Doc (love the moniker, by the way),

I know where you are coming from, however think about one statement. If you believe, "overtones created by a brass section playing in tune is thrown off by someone using vibrato," why do the Reiner recordings sound so well in tune?

Even the VERY exposed CSO Low Brass album doesn't show that intonation tendency. That said, I would have to disagree with your postulation.

A technical explanation doesn't always reflect the reality. We've all heard that bumble bees shouldn't fly, consequently, we all know that tubas shouldn't have vibrato.

BTW, I don't advocate that anyone should use vibrato or any attack that isn't as square as they want it to be. At the same time, I don't think anyone should classify Jake's style of orchestral performance as a flawed. Tubists have tried to emulate it ever since but without the vibrato and fp attacks. They think he was blowing the house down. Go figure.

[Rick Denney]

But what are the actual differences in sound that differ so much from 4/4 tubas? My guess would be the shear volume of sound, but I am sure there are other more desirable qualities as well.

It's not loudness or volume, but rather depth and "bigness". And the best-sounding grand orchestral tubas also have a friendliness that is warmly engaging, even when rearranging the structure of the building. There is a lot of high harmonic content in a big Yorkish tuba, in contrast to the darker tones of the big rotary tubas.

Rick "who first noticed the difference hearing Mike Sanders play an early Yorkbrunner" Denney

[Rick Denney]

One of these days, I may mature beyond my schlemiel stage and become a schlamazel like DP, but while I haven't played for 40 years, I have played for 34 years and am nearly as incompetent now as I was in the 7th grade.

Disclaimers aside:

There are Holtons and Holtons. I have played many Holtons that were converted by an array of luminaries into CC instruments. Some were very nice, others quite beyond me. Some had truly odd intonation that I could not at all manage. Many were stiff feeling, which seems to rather characteristic of the breed, sort of like a big Willson.

There are a very few Holtons that are alive when you play them, and for some reason those are the ones that play in tune. My Holton is very different from other Holtons I've played, including any of the converted instruments. It speaks to me through touch as well as sound. It also plays in tune--I mean as in tune as my Miraphone.

Holtons were so variably made that they are not all identical, and some are not even similar to others. Big Conns have the glory but not the touch--I could never play softly on a 20J, but I can play more softely with a better tone on my Holton than I can on my Miraphone.

It isn't perfect, of course. The G on the staff is not a happy note, requiring that I nail it fair and square (which I can usually do). The low 4th-valve (on my BBb) F requires the lungs of an elephant, and requires everything to be working just right. My York Master's fourth valve is vastly better. The D below the staff sometimes wants to be played on the third valve, and one of these days I'll have the first valve cut a bit so that the C on the staff is an easier target. It is not as agile in the upper register as my Miraphone 186, but that is to be expected. For works requiring a big sound (I play it in band), it is remarkable easy to play. And it has a sound to die for.

As to whether it sounds like the Chicago York, you get Gene to loan it to me and I'll give you an opinion (after a thorough test--five years ought to do it).

I've played one Nirschl, and it did not move me. But I'll bet there are others that would. An early Yorkbrunner moved me when I tried it out many years ago. And the occasional Rusk-converted Yorks that Dave Fedderaly sells from time to time fall into that category as well. I waited a long time before a BBb grand orchestral tuba with those qualities became available for a price I could afford.

Rick "thinking intonation is probably a little screwy on the York, too, but figuring such weakness are well-masked behind the skill of its players" Denney

[Haugan]

I hope to keep my status as a lurker, but feel more and more compelled to say a few words here and there and put in my "two cents cents worth" (if worth even that). 6/4 tubas in the hands of most (but not all) players become WMDs. I love to HEAR the tuba (not just "feel" it) in an orchestra, but I like to hear the basses, as well. Arnold Jacobs used his York tuba for what the horn was designed to do - give a guy with a reduced lung capacity a break. I studied with Arnold for years, starting in 1972, and we discussed the use of that big horn on more than one occasion. It was designed for little guys! Jacobs once told me that if he had my lung capacity (7 litres at the time) he might have played "F" tuba in the C.S.O. all those years(!), and encouraged me to do just that - bringing out a big horn just for VERY special occassions like a Bruckner Symphony or a "Ring" excerpt. In this regard, one of the truely GREAT tubas out there that doesn't get much attention is the Hirsbrunner "Kaiser model" German-style BBb. I first tried one out in Sumiswald in 1973 when Peter Sr. rebuilt my York tuba, and he claimed that "that was the best tuba they made", an opinion I understand he kept even after the Yorkbrunners were designed. The tuba had been designed by his father and grandfather, and represents (in my opinion) the pinnacle of design for a German-style "kontrabasstuba" It seems silly to me to shun a horn for it's "BBb ness" when what you are trying to achieve is a bigger more BBb-like sound. I am more than well aware of the arguments for CC vs. BBb tubas, but in the case of this instrument they don't jive - It's remarkably agile and responds FAST. The only probem is they're special order, and "sticker shock" would probably be a likelyhood. I waited 25 years until I found a used one, but it has been worth 3 times what I paid for it since. Don't rule out BBbs and ESPECIALLY this particular model. Though I play mainly F tuba ('cause I'm a BA PLAYER), I have even played "Midsummer Nights Dream" on the big Hirsbrunner (as a successful test of it's versatility). I would have never ATTEMPTED to do that on my old Holton or on my York. Are there even any more out there for sale? If you find one you better buy it before I do!

[MaryAnn]

Arnold Jacobs used his York tuba for what the horn was designed to do - give a guy with a reduced lung capacity a break. I studied with Arnold for years, starting in 1972, and we discussed the use of that big horn on more than one occasion. It was designed for little guys!

Most interesting. What is out there now, that you would recommend for little people? I've been lusting after some kind of BAT but figured I'd blow my lungs out on one. I've been told I carry pretty well with my 184, but...well, you know. I'd like to vibrate the fiddles off their seats.

MA

[Haugan]

I have a Gronitz F that works great- I would think their BATs would be excellent if they are a large version... The new Miraphone tuba NYPhil.'s Alan Baer helped develop is getting a lot of press... I'm from the Holton era- these horns are heavy and hard to get around, but once you get them there-they work great. I would tend to argue that BATs are only "practical" in a big orchestra, or a band situation where you have to provide a lot of BASS. Are you sure you really NEED one?

[Rick Denney]

I would tend to argue that BATs are only "practical" in a big orchestra, or a band situation where you have to provide a lot of BASS. Are you sure you really NEED one?

I think they also work when you want a big blossomy sound (even if not very loud). I'm using my Holton in helping out a school production of Barnum! because it is more like that sousaphone sound, even though the ensembles in considerably undersized. It's the character of the sound, not its volume, that swayed me.

But if I keep choking my way through that Scene 15 solo, I may yet bring a small F, heh, heh.

Rick "thinking a big tuba can be more friendly than powerful" Denney

[MaryAnn]

Are you sure you really NEED one?

Oh, no I don't NEED one. I WANT one.
MA

[Rick Denney]

Are you sure you really NEED one?

Oh, no I don't NEED one. I WANT one.
MA

Mary Ann, your assimilation is now complete.

Rick "noting no known cure" Denney