Ophicleide - possible to build?

[Donn]

Couldn't this serve as a good start though? If you found a cheap enough bari sax; tore it apart completely, used the bottom bow (you would nee to patch the hole as bari saxes have a port hole in the bottom) and then re-used some of the keys and ports to assemble an ophicleide.

So you're saying, use the saxophone's bottom bow, keys and ports - cut the tone holes out of the body and patch them into a new body that you fabricate?

I've seen pictures of a bass sax repaired with a salvage alto sax tone hole, by a local guy who's a fearless do-it-yourselfer. I guess pre-made tone holes and key cups would be a big time saver if they happened to be the right size. I think I would look at tenor sax dimensions, though, particularly for that bottom bow if the ophicleide is going to have the typical tall bell.

The problem with a more or less intact saxophone as the basis for an ophicleide is that you're going to miss the boat on critical acoustical parameters. With a little tweaking, you can get an instrument that can play notes, but the sound will be feeble and unfocused, because the saxophone bore profile is wrong. That's just my opinion, but I have put the mouthpiece and the saxophone together to see how it sounds, and it's bad. I suspect the fingering differences are kind of a red herring - holes on a sax below the open hole don't have a major effect on how it works, and I believe there's one large woodwind that has a similar all-closed mechanism (contrabasso ad anchia.) Of course the game could change with a bore profile like a real ophicleide, but QED, you need the bore profile.

[SousaSaver]

So, If I understand you correctly, you're saying that there is absolutely no parts on an ophicleide that could be harvested from another instrument(Bari sax). Everything would have to be custom built?

Fwiw, maybe my wording was a bit off and I didn't cover points that you mentioned, but since the op already referenced the need to building the tubes on either side I felt it was irrelevant to discuss that. Also, since the bottom bow seems to be the problematic area for the op's project, it seems to me that the only horn that would have a similar bottom bow to an ophicleide is a bari sax. Are there any other bows that would seem like a likely match?

No. Not at all. You CAN make SOME parts from a Bari Sax work. You CANNOT use a Bari Sax bottom bow. It is too big. You can use pad key cups and you can also use parts from keys to use as touches. You probably can't use the tone holes due to the shape of the tube around them. The curvature wouldn't be right. You would have to make those from brass tube stock.

The comment about having to fabricate the tubing isn't irrelevant. I mentioned it AGAIN to re-iterate how difficult it would be to properly make these from scratch.

Not trying to fight with anyone here...

[aqualung]

The answer is hidden in the cabinet under your bathroom sink. Use a metal trap, it's made out of brass and you get some dandy chrome plating as a bonus.

[pigman]

this is project close to my heart. It is do-able Its not an easy project The bottom bow is the hardest part of the build. The key cups can be turned or cast . There is a German company that will make the forgings. you can look at this site for help http://www.eppelsheim.com/hands.php?lang=enor" target="_blank you can lost wax the keys with a jewelry casting firm. Many musems will allow you to measure items in their collection. I have made tools for the body and have cast keys . Hammering the bottom takes skills that are mostly lost today. you can also cheat and cast the bottom bow. The bell can be folded and burnished over a steel as in the pod days the flair hammered . the bead or Kranz can be spun on a phenolic chuck (mandrel ) by a good metal spinner no need to cut a steel chuck. I have been working on a ophiclide project in my (not so ) spare time. I have also hammered a hogs head bell for a metal serpent. They may never get finished but I do enjoy the challenge. Go for it!!!!!

[pigman]

The answer is hidden in the cabinet under your bathroom sink. Use a metal trap, it's made out of brass and you get some dandy chrome plating as a bonus.

This is not such a crazy idea. the bend is little wide but it would quite possible work for a first try

[imperialbari]

There were this ophicleide summit in Berlin in 2007. My favourite on that instrument is Nick Byrne, who as far as I can hear plays lead in this recording:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUS-NJ8nSnI

The center instrument is a modern Eppelsheim. It is noticeable different in the bell flare profile, which points to a significance of that design aspect. From a source not remembered, maybe the ContraBass list, I read Mr. Eppelsheim telling that the original ophicleides from the 19th century never had had their optimal hole placement properly calculated, so that he started that aspect of the design from scratch.

Klaus

[imperialbari]

PS: I have tried playing a baritone sax with a trombone mouthpiece. A tenor also for that matter. Maybe they would work. If not these types of saxes still could act as donors for the bottom bow, which might be the toughest part to make from scratch.

[Dan Schultz]

Could start with one of these... or maybe just play it like it is.

[Donn]

From a source not remembered, maybe the ContraBass list, I read Mr. Eppelsheim telling that the original ophicleides from the 19th century never had had their optimal hole placement properly calculated, so that he started that aspect of the design from scratch.

That's the interesting part to me. Is it a science, can Eppelsheim plug some numbers into an algorithm and say, well, we're going to need a 34mm hole here assuming the pad opens to 12mm, to make that Eb really speak, but that's going to throw everything off from D so 32mm might be a better compromise ...?

I've heard of remedial acoustics with saxophones, where they make cork inserts to reduce a tone hole or two.* From an academic point of view, it might be a lot more interesting to produce a sort of acoustic bench instrument, with some kind of sliding opening system that supports any desired arrangement of tone holes. It wouldn't be playable at all, in the conventional sense, but it would be much more interesting than yet another playable but not very good instrument.

* (Edit - on second thought, I think the cork inserts may have been in some clarinet family instrument, if it matters.)

[imperialbari]

At the outer perimeter of my acquaintances there is Danish saxophone maker. He is a trained repairman doing all woodwinds, but used to specialize in rebuilding old saxes to an unbelievable level of functionality and beauty. He cannot read one note off a sheet yet is a sought after studio player on all woodwinds in jazz and klezmer contexts. He started making mouthpieces of hardwood by means of a scrapped dentists drill. Since then they were commercially replicated in sterling silver.

Then he wanted realising ideas about making copper body tenor saxes, where he made the bodies in the workshop he works for. The keywork for the first sample was taken off another saxophone. Last I in person spoke to him the first prototype was perfect but for a couple of holes being too large. That would be fixed with the standard remedy of the trade. Metal rings would be soldered inside the raised tone holes in question as sort of linings. That must have worked for since then his employer sent me a calendar for 2008 issued by a guy making calendars of the hottest vintage and new saxophones worldwide. And he has even started making mezzo soprano saxes in G.

The rings in the holes were my point.

Klaus

[imperialbari]

Another PS: It has been 20+ years since I read James Galway’s book on the flute. I can’t stand the man or his vibrato, but the book has one or more chapters by a flute maker, who more than hints towards a set of formulas for hole placement in flutes.

Furthermore: Selmer or Buffet some 25 years ago issued a luxury clarinet with carbon fiber rings rather than the usual ones out of nickel silver. Part of the game was that the tone holes were oversize for a better projection. To compensate for that the walls of the tone holes had to be raised. They looked like being machined out of the same piece of wood as the respective body sections, but they may have been inserts. I have been close, but never had one in my hands. Point being that the height of the raised tone holes is a pitch factor.

Klaus

[OldHorn]

Build an ophicleide? Good luck. Sure it is possible to build one, heck they were building them 185 years ago. Do you want one in C or Bb? 9 keys or 11 or more? Round or tunable bocal? My first step would be to find an instrument and make precise measurements. Keep in mind the conical taper from the mouthpiece to the bell must be "right", hole placement and size are absolutely critical. Some have tunable bocals, but once built, it is "impossible" to change the distance between the holes. (Think about what tuning slides for each valve do on a horn). If you want it to play in modern pitch, and the horn to be in tune with it self, you have to get all the dimensions exactly right. I'd forget about salvaging bottom bows, or keys or anything else from a saxaphone, don't waste your time. Leave the sax in the dumpster where it belongs. You will use a lot of metal working skills. Lindsay publications have books for sale that explain all kinds of metal work: lathe, milling, casting, sheet metal working, English wheeling, etc. Honestly, my best advice is to save up "a few thousand" and buy a playable or repairable genuine ophicleide. I don't think Rob Stewart builds new ones any more. Here's another idea: take the "build a natural trumpet" class. That will give you a real idea what you'd be up against. It is offered every summer, and I'm sure some Tubenet-er can give you the details on that. Another option is the serpent. It is possible to build a traditional Church Serpent that plays well. I know because I've done it, walnut, brass & leather. Not an easy or quick project, but quite do-able. Good luck, ophicledes are great fun & I highly recommend them, but I'd never build one!

[UDELBR]

Yeah, the whole "don't even try; you won't be any good at it" thing is sorta dismaying.

[PMeuph]

How hard is it to make an ophicleide?

If the length is the same as the wooden version, something like 91-inches, wouldn't then the tone holes be about the same? Or should I take measurements of an ophicleide?

....

Still, as the basic design I could use the wooden plans, right?

Have you looked for technical drawings or expired patents of (brass) ophicleides? AS some have suggested, it might be worthwhile to look into plans or produce your own.

FWIW, the Edinburgh museum has some plans for sale (I don't think they have an ophicleide plan, but they do have an ophicleide. You might want to contact them to see if one is in the works.
http://www.music.ed.ac.uk/euchmi/

I think that most of the posts above are categorized into two categories:

1. Those advocating a complete build from scratch using plans and templates and effectively building a "reproduction' horn.(All the caveats are precisely listed in Dan O's post)

2. Or on the other hand those who think that you can build something more ophicleide-esque (Franken-ophicleide??) from different parts of different horns. (With unknown results, but that gamble would be taken on in any beginner franken-horn project)


Lastly, just to get my weekly amount of trolling done, has anyone ever contacted Jinbao to see if they would make an ophicleide?

[SousaSaver]

Ian -

It wouldn't be terribly difficult to make a bottom bow. It would be easier to make one than it would be to find something that would work.

You could get some tubing that would be close to the right diameter (due to the taper of course), anneal it, put it on a mandrel and burnish or tap it to expand it (you will probably have to anneal it a few times before the process is over). Once you have the proper taper, fill it with cerrobend and bend it.

It would also not be terribly difficult to make the tone holes. You could make those using solid brass cylinder stock on a lathe. The time consuming part would be properly fitting the tone hole to the curvature of the tube, but even that shouldn't be hard, just time consuming.

You can un-braze pad cups off of some bari-sax keys and use brass rod stock to make the keys and hinge tubes.

The body is the tough part, but not impossible. The first part of this video might help:

or this one

...and this one



And if you still want to pursue the wood route...


Good luck Ian - I know you will do just fine.

[Donn]

It would also not be terribly difficult to make the tone holes. You could make those using solid brass cylinder stock on a lathe. The time consuming part would be properly fitting the tone hole to the curvature of the tube, but even that shouldn't be hard, just time consuming.

If there's any way to draw the tone holes from the body, as opposed to soldering them on - no one likes soldered tone holes. Even if the solder joint has no leaks, which looks kind of tricky to me, the solder can degrade over time and leaks will develop. Even if it's only some kind of socket, into which the actual tone hole cylinder is to be soldered, that might be a lot better than a butt joint.

[Daniel C. Oberloh]

Tone hole fabrication is not supper hard (if you know how) but soldered on is the way to go. They could also be brazed on as is still done on high-end flutes to this day. Making the tone holes can be done using 16 gage brass plate. A preshaped patter made from construction paper can be rolled into the desired size ring, marked with a sharpie pen, cut with a sisors and adjusted to fit in place on the body of the instrument. Once the pattern is completed, unfold the ring and lay it out on the brass where it can be cut to shape, rolled into a ring, ends brased together, fine tuned, cleaned up and soldered to the body, voila! You have a tone hole. Or you could spend a lot f time and money making spinning chucks and spin the tone-holes from plate on a lathe.

I do feel that this is a pretty big undertaking for a total beginner. Hell, it would be a big job for those of us who have been at it for some time. I do think that because Ian only has nine monts in the class and a lot to learn, he might be better off spending his time learing and mastering the basic skills he will really need to secure a job once his time in the program has come to pass. Once he has secured a position and has the time (hehe ), Ian can then turn his attention to this fun little project. I know , its his life and he can do as he pleases, but some times we all need a little nudge to keep us on track. If all he wants to do is mess about while he is at RTC and has no real desire to enter the trade, I say have at it, knock yourself out.


D.C. Oberloh
Oberloh Woodwind and Brass Works
Seattle,Wa