How to get a louder sound from a high school tuba section?

[Rick Denney]

lively and energetic colorful sound? Solo maybe, in a band?..Not in my opinion..There will be a lot of others workin' that register
Wanna do something big in the flugelhorn register, pick up a flugelhorn.........Or a travel tuba

Good tuba sound has a wide range of overtones, and those overtones are required to give it a characteristic sound. It's what makes an Alexander sound an Alexander sound, and it's what makes the really big tubas popular with orchestral performers. One reason kids experiment with deeper and deeper funnel mouthpieces is that they are going for darker, darker, darkest so-called fundamental-rich sound, in the mistaken belief that they are approaching an orchestral sound. In the end, they just get woofy, and their sound lacks clarity, projection, and vibrance. I have learned the hard way that big mouthpieces are not the key to a big sound. They are tool used by a monster player who can already make a big sound on a smaller mouthpiece.

Those overtones are also required to give it carrying power, especially outdoors. They create difference tones in the ear of the listener that sound like the fundamental, even though they travel through the air as higher-frequency components of the sound. There is a reason a bass trombone is louder than a tuba. Obviously, we don't want the tuba to sound like a bass trombone. But we don't want it to sound like a sine wave, either. With so little tonal diversity, anything that happens to absorb or damp that frequency in the environment will make it disappear--including the player next to you who is slightly off-pitch and therefore out of phase with your sound. The important concept is that the whole tone concept comes through more strongly when those overtones are present and in tune. The lack of overtones will undermine the sound of the note, not increase it.

I suggest you record a sound you think is really good, and do some spectral analysis. I think you'll be surprised.

Rick "noting that 'thin and bright' is not a lack of fundamental, but rather a lack of well-tuned overtones" Denney

[Lectron]

Trust me sir, I am quite satisfied with my sound, and having just....sound as
my profession for many years, I know the specter is very rich as I have out of
curiosity made recordings and had the Fourier transform written out.

My point is...By focusing on going darker in tone characteristic, they will be forced
to open the yaw and spend more air to sound just as load and I think they can
benefit doing so.

It is also my experience that people that are not able to produce a strong sound
at the group of 8 using same instrument usually have a tendency of having
their tonal balance on the bright crispy side

[sloan]

Good tuba sound has a wide range of overtones, and those overtones are required to give it a characteristic sound. It's what makes an Alexander sound an Alexander sound

Yeah - but to make an Alexander sound, you have to play the overtones out of tune.

[Lectron]

AND use a DSP to manipulate the overtones....

[Rick Denney]

Good tuba sound has a wide range of overtones, and those overtones are required to give it a characteristic sound. It's what makes an Alexander sound an Alexander sound

Yeah - but to make an Alexander sound, you have to play the overtones out of tune.

Out of tune with what? It seems to me they are perfectly in tune...with the overtone series required to make an Alexander sound. But a kid trying to make an Alex sound like an Alex with a mouthpiece too big for his chops and airflow, who chose that mouthpiece because he wanted to make a sound "rich in fundamental", will not achieve the Alex sound with any amount of effort going down that path. He will achieve the Alex sound when he allows the overtones to resonate instead of being damped.

Rick "who didn't say they aligned with a perfect geometric harmonic series" Denney

[jeopardymaster]

Something else to work on - and I don't think I saw this in other posts:

PLAY TOGETHER! Use sectional rehearsals to work on your ensemble playing - and pay special attention to TIME as well as intonation. Attacking the notes in synch will make your section sound 10 times bigger. You guys have to think and function as a unit. Try to get your band director or assistant, or a musical parent or other outside coach, to lend you an unbiased critical "ear." You'll benefit from the impartial opinions of a critical listener. Also, record those sectionals and spend the time to listen to the recordings as a group. Preferably listen as you go, so you get the benefit of immediate feedback. You aren't going to need a pristine studio to do it, just a good recorder. Your band director or someone else at your school might have one if none of you do.

[Rick Denney]

Trust me sir, I am quite satisfied with my sound, and having just....sound as
my profession for many years, I know the specter is very rich as I have out of
curiosity made recordings and had the Fourier transform written out.

My point is...By focusing on going darker in tone characteristic, they will be forced
to open the yaw and spend more air to sound just as load and I think they can
benefit doing so.

It is also my experience that people that are not able to produce a strong sound
at the group of 8 using same instrument usually have a tendency of having
their tonal balance on the bright crispy side

I did not challenge your ability to play, or even what particular behaviors you think beginners ought to learn to do. I'm only challenging your use of an incorrect description of the desired wave form. If you've done a spectral analysis then you know your sound has a wide range of overtones extending all the way up to the 10th or 12th partial at least, with a strong enough component to contribute to the tone color.

Opening the jaw is good. Improving airflow is good. A strong and energetic buzz is good. Usually it achieves a more colorful sound that is richer in harmonic content. That richness is what makes it strong. If you doubt me, take a recording of yourself playing a low Bb, and then run it through a filter that attenuates all frequencies higher than 100 Hz. This is easy with DSP--you need a really brick wall filter to get the full effect. But even if you run it through a narrow-band equalizer, and turn up the 60 Hz slider and turn the 120 Hz (and all higher) slides down to nothing, you know you won't do the resulting sound any good. Completely attenuating frequencies above the fundamental will make the sound dull and weak.

My best results come when I tell the novices around me that they should hear the full color of the instrument: Not just the woofy fundamental, not just the laser-beam overtones, but the whole stack of overtones. When I show them what that takes, the jaw opening and air flow come naturally. Buzzing a mouthpiece actually helps. They learn immediately that they have to take a big breath and move a LOT of air to make a buzz a lower note at all, unless they occlude the opening with their finger, as I had to do when Mike Sanders was teaching me as a repeat beginner. After a minute or two of that, putting the mouthpiece back into the instrument causes the tone to come alive, until they forget and have to remind themselves (or until they practice it to the point that it becomes automatic).

This is completely consistent with every one of your statements in this thread except the notion of a sinusoidal tone. A waveform shaped like a sine wave is NOT what we want.

(On the strong and energetic buzz, I remember a master class by Chuck Daellenbach where several of we adult players were in the room with a bunch of high-schoolers. He asked the grownups to buzz their mouthpieces. One person made a very clean buzz, but he actually suggested the buzz was too clean. It needed more energy, which came out as a bit of noise in the buzz. His explanation was that this added energy to the resulting sound so that it would carry to the back of the hall. He was playing a very small instrument, yet nobody ever had trouble hearing him in even the biggest halls with no amplification.)

Rick "who argues about words, because words, however inadequate, are all an Internet forum has" Denney

[jeopardymaster]

One person made a very clean buzz, but he actually suggested the buzz was too clean. It needed more energy, which came out as a bit of noise in the buzz. His explanation was that this added energy to the resulting sound so that it would carry to the back of the hall.

Whoa. I know how to explain the need and point out whether sufficient energy is being created, but I haven't been able to teach or explain it, to my satisfaction, anyway. Sort of like pornography, I've just known it when I've seen --- er -- heard, it. I'm going to cogitate on this one, and do a bit of buzz-testing. Thanks, Mr. Denny. And Mr. Daellenbach.

[Lectron]

This is completely consistent with every one of your statements in this thread except the notion of a sinusoidal tone. A waveform shaped like a sine wave is NOT what we want.

Rick "who argues about words, because words, however inadequate, are all an Internet forum has" Denney

If you are to misunderstand me, please do it right....

High pitch demands less energy to produce the same SPL as a lo
Making a tuba sound fff by adding overtones is a cheap way of making it loader
if that means it will sound like a bass trombone......And the kidz probably will.

That ain't no foundation for a band even thou it would be heard in every li'll
corner of the 86.000 m^3 big Royal Albert Hall

I know you have your mantra on overtones, and I totally agree that without them
a tuba is as interesting as a......well..something completely uninteresting....

"Lectron who probably wont have the last word, but stops there"

[Rick Denney]

If you are to misunderstand me, please do it right....

High pitch demands less energy to produce the same SPL as a lo
Making a tuba sound fff by adding overtones is a cheap way of making it loader
if that means it will sound like a bass trombone......And the kidz probably will.

How does one add only upper overtones, as you imply I am recommending? What exactly does one do to make that happen, other than replace the instrument or mouthpiece?

Are you talking about edge? Does anybody conflate "harmonically rich" with "edge"?

Rick "who can only think of how to remove them" Denney

[MartyNeilan]

H.S. kids aren't going to follow the whole overtone thing, or will take it completely out of context.
Breathe and blow. Deep relaxed breaths and move large quantities of air as wind (not small quantities of high pressure.)
My first serious teacher used to say, "Hoe and toe"
Simple. Works wonders.

[luke_hollis]

H.S. kids aren't going to follow the whole overtone thing, or will take it completely out of context.
Breathe and blow. Deep relaxed breaths and move large quantities of air as wind (not small quantities of high pressure.)
My first serious teacher used to say, "Hoe and toe"
Simple. Works wonders.

"Harrrumph" !

[Mark]

made in Norway

Are you talking about edge? Does anybody conflate "harmonically rich" with "edge"?

What we have here is a failure to communicate.

[toobagrowl]

If you've done a spectral analysis then you know your sound has a wide range of overtones extending all the way up to the 10th or 12th partial at least, with a strong enough component to contribute to the tone color.

Most adult players will know what you are talking about. But most H.S. kids wont.
That is what Lectron is saying here.

Kids and adults alike will "get it" if you talk about getting a deep, round sound instead of all this 'overtone' jargon. Besides, it is a better description of good sound and more to-the-point.

[Rick Denney]

If you've done a spectral analysis then you know your sound has a wide range of overtones extending all the way up to the 10th or 12th partial at least, with a strong enough component to contribute to the tone color.

Most adult players will know what you are talking about. But most H.S. kids wont.
That is what Lectron is saying here.

Kids and adults alike will "get it" if you talk about getting a deep, round sound instead of all this 'overtone' jargon. Besides, it is a better description of good sound and more to-the-point.

Okay--I responded to the use of a specific term: sinusoidal. That term has a specific meaning, and what it means is exactly what we do not want to achieve. In my response, I pointed out (repeatedly) that I agree with the prescribed actions, and with what I'm sure the gentlemen desired, but cautioned against using that term. He has consistently interpreted that as meaning I want kids to play with a thin, brittle, bright sound. I try to transmit as clearly as I can, and I know there is sometimes distortion. But receivers can sometimes be part of the problem, too.

Now, to the notion that kids can't understand stuff. In high school, I knew all about sine waves, and had experimented with the sound of different waveforms in physics lab in the 10th grade. We had definitely listened to the difference in sound between a sine wave and a square wave, and had discussed the reasons for that difference. That was in a crappy public high school in Houston. Yes, it was a long time ago, but schools are much better equipped now than they were then. Don't underestimate what high-school kids might know, or what they might be capable of understanding.

Next, when a person makes a sound that provides a rich array of overtones, the word that comes to mind might be resonant, or deep, or energetic, or powerful. It may even be round and warm. It will not be sinusoidal, or any of the other adjectives that the gentleman applied to my descriptions (in contradiction to what I actually wrote). Nobody who makes such a sound, or hears it demonstrated by a good teacher, will mistake it for the overblown laser beam effect, or for the sound of a sine wave. Yes, making such a sound requires a open aperture and buckets of air. It is the sound that will demonstrate the technique, not the other way around, though. Play by sound, and not by feel.

Rick "who refuses to talk down to high-school kids" Denney

[Donn]

Most adult players will know what you are talking about.

Adult tuba players? Are you kidding?

[Lectron]

You can while playing manipulate the ratio between harmonic and fundamental.

Our preferences when it comes to how load things seems is far above any tuba fundamentals.
IOW....A thinner crispy sound will sound just as load, but within the register the Tuba
is supposed to contribute with it's bottom tone of a cord etc. nothing much is happening.

Keep i simple! Do they know how to make a round sustain tone, the rest is a piece of cake
There will still be enough harmonics for all of us...Focusing on the harmonics is inventing a problem

[Rick Denney]

Focusing on the harmonics is inventing a problem

With all due respect, I was not focusing on the harmonics (or lack of them). You were, with your use of the word "sunusoidal", which, in fact, includes no harmonics. I did not disagree with anything else you said, except for your repeated accusation that I did. If you will not see that, then there's no point in showing it to you again.

Rick "now done" Denney

[USStuba04]

+1 for working on tone first, it's the long road but the end result is worth the time.

[luke_hollis]

So, did the High School tuba section here follow any advice given and if so, what was the result?