Favorite College?

[Donn]

I've never been a music student - since I was expelled from flutophone class in 3rd grade I guess - but I did get to hear at some length from a tuba student at the local music department, who had signed on only to have the faculty person he'd intended to study with snatched out from underneath him. Leaving him with a teacher who played French horn, who personally I thought a lot of but that wasn't how he felt about it. Just a thought, for someone who might have zeroed in on a particular faculty member - might be hard to absolutely guarantee that this person will be available for the duration of the program, so think about backup plans.

[Rick Denney]

Now, I'd like to switch gears and talk about teacher compatibility. Most teachers are incompatible with lazy and entitled students, and most teachers will do their best to work with motivated and dedicated students. That said, the best stuff I ever got from teachers was the stuff I hated getting at the time. The grad-school professor that set the stage for the most powerful educational epiphany of my life was thought by me to be a "mean old man" about, oh, five minutes before that epiphany struck. The best teachers are those who set the highest standards, and who, brutally if necessary, enforce those standards. Sometimes they do it in a nice way, but to my thinking that is not necessary. What is necessary is that they can provide a strategy for attaining those standards to motivated and dedicated students. (The lazy ones don't matter.)
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On a side-note, I also studied composition, with two profs. One I hated, one I loved. The reason I hated one is that he would point out stuff he didn't like (and possibly offer a re-write) but not explain why he hated it or what was wrong with it. The other was much better at trying to display why this wasn't working or why it wasn't ready yet. I figured out what I needed to improve with my playing by the time I was in university, what I needed was not someone to tell me what was wrong, but someone who could comfortably help me overcome those obstacles. Personality to me is not just are we friends outside of class, it is can I work professionally with this guy, take his feedback and work on the stuff he wants to give me without wanting to quit this program.... YMMV

Thank you for verifying my points.

I have bold-faced critical points in what you wrote and what I wrote. You'll see that your statements link directly to what I said was a requirements: The teacher must have a strategy for success. But I also added that the student must implement that strategy diligently, and many students lack diligence. They have no right to complain about being incompatible with their teacher. Lazy students will be incompatible with ANY good teacher. Working hard may not be enough to ensure success, but very few teachers will be brutal with those who work hard, even if they do, eventually present uncomfortable truths. This is orgthogonal to getting a good, general education, though.

I only disagree with your use of "comfortably". Comfort is a dangerous drug in a learning environment.

Our OP is asking about undergraduate school, given that his posts from not very long ago were related to high school, unless I'm really misremembering user names.

Rick "who was never comfortable around the professors he admired the most" Denney

[PMeuph]

I only disagree with your use of "comfortably". Comfort is a dangerous drug in a learning environment.

Maybe tact and respect are more the words I am going for... If somebody is respectful and tactful, even if they are harsh, then that can work out fine.

[Rick Denney]

Allow me to re-join your split hair-- New York's Office of the Professions still lists 12 years of qualified experience without any degree as a path to licensure in engineering. I'm not aware of anyone becoming licensed recently by that path, but it's still on the books.

I had heard through the NCEES that there were no states left that will license through experience alone, but obviously that is not correct. Do they require the exams?

Rick "who'll ask about it the next time teaching up there" Denney

[Rick Denney]

Where do you teach?

I teach training short courses for the gubmint, and do so all over the place. I've taught in NYSDOT's training facility in Schenectady a number of times, but also in Albany, Syracuse, Buffalo, Hauppauge, and New York City. Also in all the neighboring states except Vermont.

(Ooooooh. I would NOT want to attempt the Fundamentals of Engineering exam without an engineering degree. To broad over too many engineering topics--nearly impossible to learn all that on any job.)

Rick "who has never taught in Vermont, Maine, or Wyoming" Denney

[JCalkin]

Anyone who chooses a *college* based primarily on the personality of a SINGLE faculty member making a mistake, in my opinion.
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ASSUME that you WILL change your major at least twice (or at least recognize that this is a strong possibility).
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College tuition is a very expensive way to pay for practical music lessons.

These are very important points. Neglect them at your peril.

Yes, but it is also important to remember that the reverse is a distinct possibility:

You need a well-rounded and good school experience, but if your goal is to really focus on your private study as an important component of your education, then neglect researching your private teacher at your peril. I have known people who have gone to otherwise fine music schools (good classroom instruction, fine ensembles) who did not have a good experience because they and their private teachers were like oil and water.

I say, find a school you're interested in from a "whole school" perspective, and then arrange to take a lesson with your potential private teacher, and be sure the fit is a good one.

[sloan]

I say, find a school you're interested in from a "whole school" perspective, and then arrange to take a lesson with your potential private teacher, and be sure the fit is a good one.

To which I might only add: "and don't assume that your "private teacher" will necessarily be associated with your college. Certainly, don't hand over control of your entire academic program to your "private teacher".

[ShoelessWes]

To which I might only add: "and don't assume that your "private teacher" will necessarily be associated with your college. Certainly, don't hand over control of your entire academic program to your "private teacher".

In some of the bigger school settings... don't assume you'll even be taking lessons from so and so professor. Some settings, especially for music ed majors, have you taking from TA/GAs.

[PMeuph]

I say, find a school you're interested in from a "whole school" perspective, and then arrange to take a lesson with your potential private teacher, and be sure the fit is a good one.

To which I might only add: "and don't assume that your "private teacher" will necessarily be associated with your college. Certainly, don't hand over control of your entire academic program to your "private teacher".

What if there are no other teachers around? What if your teacher has a "Don't study with anyone else policy"?....

The crux of your argument in this thread, and others, is quite clear. You love education as a well rounded learning experience based on diversity, challenge, and flexibility. It might reflect the ideal world, but in my experience, some of the things you described are not entirely possible for everyone. (e.g. That there is a symphony pro nearby who isn't your private teacher)

Overall I agree with you, college experience should be diverse. OTOH, music school is another beast that should probably be left outside of universities. The French have a system of 30-some conservatories that teach music performance. If you study music in a university over there, you are taking a musicology/music theory degree in the context of a larger humanities program. Students can be signed up in both concurrently. It seems that the system you are advocating for resemble that one...

[ShoelessWes]

What if your teacher has a "Don't study with anyone else policy"?....

I know you are just the messenger on this, but that's one facet of some teacher's "teaching", that I've never understood.

[Bob Kolada]

Lessons, some individual music theory reading, and lots of ensemble playing.

[Biggs]

I say, find a school you're interested in from a "whole school" perspective, and then arrange to take a lesson with your potential private teacher, and be sure the fit is a good one.

To which I might only add: "and don't assume that your "private teacher" will necessarily be associated with your college. Certainly, don't hand over control of your entire academic program to your "private teacher".

What if there are no other teachers around? What if your teacher has a "Don't study with anyone else policy"?....

The crux of your argument in this thread, and others, is quite clear. You love education as a well rounded learning experience based on diversity, challenge, and flexibility. It might reflect the ideal world, but in my experience, some of the things you described are not entirely possible for everyone. (e.g. That there is a symphony pro nearby who isn't your private teacher)

I interpreted this a little differently; I don't think Dr. Sloan meant to imply* you should spend your time actively seeking private instruction from someone other than your primary teacher. I believe he was referring to the fact that many college tuba teachers aren't full-time residents of the university and thus may have limited knowledge about graduation requirements, logistics, and other bureaucratic nuts-and-bolts that are necessary evils for all undergrads, including music majors.

I am employed at one of the biggest-name tuba schools under the sun, but the tuba faculty parachute in one day a week to teach lessons and coach quintets. They're excellent, dedicated, and supportive teachers, but their connection to the university is practically non-existent. They can't help you with securing a locker from the music operations office, advise you which theory professor is the most engaging, or help you schedule your Gen-Ed requirements**. For an 18-year old college freshman adjusting to dorm life as one of 20,000+ students, this support may or may not be missed depending the individual pupil's maturity levels and independence.

*If this is incorrect, Dr. Sloan, feel free to chime in
**Even five-day-a-week, tenured guys sometimes need gentle reminders about this stuff

[sloan]

Let's put it this way: I view going to college and making your prime focus "playing the tuba" about as appropriate as going to college and making your prime focus "programming in Java".

Parse away...

[Rick Denney]

Overall I agree with you, college experience should be diverse. OTOH, music school is another beast that should probably be left outside of universities. The French have a system of 30-some conservatories that teach music performance. If you study music in a university over there, you are taking a musicology/music theory degree in the context of a larger humanities program. Students can be signed up in both concurrently. It seems that the system you are advocating for resemble that one...

Unless our OP is planning to go to France, that isn't a relevant recommendation for him, of course. But that doesn't mean Dr. Sloan's principles are unattainable in this country.

It's not diversity that is important. It's breadth (which is not the same thing). Educated people know about a lot of things, and are required to demonstrate the ability to integrate and express that knowledge by applying it in a lot of ways to many different problems.

Trained people have skills.

Most people want to emerge from college trained to get a job. That's asking a cat to do a dog's job. They should emerge from college educated, and then use their abilities to integrate and express the breadth of knowledge they have learned to train themselves (or obtain training) for whatever job they desire. They can do that at the same time, if they treat each objective separately.

Dr. Sloan is not just speaking theoretically. He knows of a situation close to him where a student was educated at one university and studied music at the neighboring conservatory. The student emerged educated, and also trained in music. That empowered him to take whatever direction life presented to him, and whatever direction became important to him and made him happy.

The point that students will change majors is not a statement that students are flighty and indecisive. It's a complaint that as a society we push 17-year-olds to decide what they are going to do with their lives when they've had almost no opportunity to experience what life has to offer. If they have no academic aptitude or motivation (which is a frequent truth that people seem unwilling to acknowledge these days), they should seek training, with the understanding (also rarely acknowledged) that they might have to start over to be trained for something else at some point. This is true for musicians, too. The very best musicians who are driven to express their extreme talent right from the start, have to find places where they can also be educated, but for them that will be secondary. If they aren't good enough, however, they may face some tough choices. Is one prepared for a life pursuit outside the music world with a degree from, say, Julliard? Perhaps, but they will have to demonstrate it.

But many students enter their college career without a clear sense of where they are going. It isn't just flexibility that is important for them--it's breadth. If the program is sufficiently broad, they may not have to keep changing majors until they develop a sense of what they want to do.

Someone who is laser-focused on music, with the sort of drive that it will take to be the best musician in any given room, will need both education and training. Not all places that are good at one will be good at the other, and this is another thing we must acknowledge. But most first-class universities that have music schools find a way to bring in a first-class music faculty, even if they have to arrange for outside lessons for a student. Don't be afraid to ask for that. Yes, talk to the low-brass professor, but don't just talk to him.

Rick "who knows a few well-trained but unhappy musicians" Denney

[TubaRay]

Click here.

http://i39.tinypic.com/991c0o.png

I know I'm encouraged,now.

[Bob Kolada]

Bam!

[Michael Bush]

The point that students will change majors is not a statement that students are flighty and indecisive.

Exactly. There's no more point in moralizing about it than there is in disagreeing with it. It's just what the data say.

Half or so of freshmen change majors. Half or so of all students change majors three times during their college careers. 70-80% of all students change majors at least once before graduating.

Any individual student may be one of those who won't change, but the odds are against it. So it is just normal prudence to make sure you have serious options. It's better to have them and not need them than to need them and not have them.

[JCalkin]

What if there are no other teachers around? What if your teacher has a "Don't study with anyone else policy"?....

Forgive my ignorance, but does this actually happen? If one of my students wants to take a lesson with another musician, I say more power to 'em! IMO, getting different perspectives is VITAL to one's development. I don't know all there is to know about the tuba, much less music, nor do I pretend that every message I try to deliver to students is easily and correctly understood, interpreted and applied the first time.

I have been privileged to have studied with some FANTASTIC musicians, and I can't imagine a single one of them being so caught up in their own method to deny me the opportunity for growth outside the four walls of their studio.

[Michael Bush]

What if there are no other teachers around? What if your teacher has a "Don't study with anyone else policy"?....

Forgive my ignorance, but does this actually happen?

I don't know about private or college teachers. I assume it does happen in such contexts also. My kids' high school band director barely tolerates his students going to clinic bands or private teachers. It's just peer pressure from his colleagues that keeps him nominating them for clinics. And he comes right out of his tree if anything they learned in those experiences or from private teachers comes up in his classes. (There are no words for how thoroughly I detest him.)

[Michael Bush]

Yep, Bloke, that's as good a summation as anyone could give.