Review of Gemeinhardt Production CC and BBb piston tubas

[bisontuba]

[quote="russiantuba"]

If I would have known he was coming through my town and making a stop, I would have spent a serious time testing these horns further.

Hi-
It is a 4 1/2 hr drive from Columbus to Elkhart--as I keep saying, go try the horns....

I have owned a few of the CC 186 rotary clones--really excellent tubas, but a totally different animal than the Gemeinardt CC piston horns.....

As for price, you can get the CC Gemeinhardts in 4 or 5 valves in lacquer & hard case for under $6k---and again, whatever a horn costs, it comes down to how does it play---UNTIL you go play them yourself, you can't make any judgements.....

Take a drive....good luck!

Regards-
Mark

[eupher61]

I will add on, after a disturbing NPR broadcast, after I heard what is done in apple's factory in China, I never want to buy anything again from that country.

OT, but that has been pretty much discredited. "This American Life" did a 2 hour episode about the whole thing.

[bort]

I'm sure it plays great, just wish it was made in America!

[eupher61]

OK....how about we have a Tuba gangbang at Dick Barth's place in Elkhart?

How about July 10, as many of us as can go there and play every stinkin' tuba he has in stock. Yeah, we'll have to take turns, but we can prevent each other from playing The Ride or Bydlo more than once. (Frankly, playing The Ride on a BBb 6/4 is pretty cool, as is Bydlo on a French C tuba...)

Someone coming from Wisconsin, bring me a case of Sprecher Black Bavarian, a case of their Root Beer, and a case of their Orange Dream.

I'll email Dick and see if he'll be there that day. Would suck if he wasn't....

[Lingon]

...I will say that ALL my friends who play bass trombone say having an independent 2nd trigger makes a world of difference to them, and that they very much dislike dependent 2nd rotors, they say it doesn't feel right...

As a quick off topic comment I would say that while the independent valves on a bass trombone is another thing than the dependent 2nd valves, I think the dependent system on a bass trombone usually works better. I believe I am not the only one that thinks so, for example Douglas Yeo in BSO has played dependent for many, many years.
Now back on topic.

[bisontuba]

Whatever you say my friend......

Mark

[bort]

One HUGE reason the Jin Bao tubas are so cheap is that there is next to no R&D required. We call them "clones" for a reason, right?

Then again, this tuba is just the latest incarnation of a B&M/Nirschl design, so it's not like they started with nothing. But still a different starting point than the clones!

[bisontuba]

Hi-
For the last time, I will say this--go play the horns-- maybe how they play, quality, etc. has something to do with it.
Is a Volkswagen built like a Porsche? No. Is it priced the same? No. While not a Porsche, a Volkswagen is still fine quality for the money. Is a Geneinhardt built like a JinBao? A big no! Is it priced the same? No. While not a Gemeinhardt, a JinBao/Huashen (or the MANY others) can still be of fine quality.
Listen with your ears, NOT your eyes.
BTW, I do not own a music store--now, that's a new one!I The Gemeinhardt tubas were designed here, are built in China.

Best of luck guys Anything else on these horns, contact Gemeinhardt-I'm just a tuba player....

Regards-
Mark

[Bob Kolada]

186ish/Schillbrunner/1291ish/...- copy, they are what they are
Gemeinhardt tubas- supposedly original design, cheaper labor than other big tuba companies

I can see how the Gemeinhardts would list for more; deservedly or not (kinda reminds me of all those Cali morons who "build" tall IFS truck lifts completely on a computer; most anyone can "do" most anything on just a computer!).

Mark, FWIW, I can't help but remember how much you lauded the Jin Bao F. Mine turned out to be a garbage horn- shitty tuning, shitty response, shitty low range. I like you but, as everyone should do with everyone else, am taking your opinions of tubas with a grain of salt now. That horn really sucked!

Also, I must correct myself from earlier. I've played the --Brazilian Nirschl-- tubas a few times. Those remind me of the 3301's. I've only played the Gemeinhardts once, at the past Midwest. I played the Eb, F, and -maybe- the Bb. I did not play the C. I do remember Mr. Barth telling me two years in a row (after seeing me play the W. Nirschl Bb)- "You sound good on that; you should buy it!" I pointed that out the second time.

[bisontuba]

186ish/Schillbrunner/1291ish/...- copy, they are what they are
Gemeinhardt tubas- supposedly original design, cheaper labor than other big tuba companies

I can see how the Gemeinhardts would list for more; deservedly or not (kinda reminds me of all those Cali morons who "build" tall IFS truck lifts completely on a computer; most anyone can "do" most anything on just a computer!).

Mark, FWIW, I can't help but remember how much you lauded the Jin Bao F. Mine turned out to be a garbage horn- shitty tuning, shitty response, shitty low range. I like you but, as everyone should do with everyone else, am taking your opinions of tubas with a grain of salt now. That horn really sucked!

Hello Bob-
Have you seen my posts--don't I keep saying GO TRY THE HORNS IN ELKHART? BTW, the JinBao F was a great deal for the money except it had some pitch issues that a tuning slide trigger corrected--see my old posts on that also.I played many a gig on that horn. I even included pictures of the trigger here on Tubenet so anyone who wanted to install one could just follow the pics.
Have a nice Summer and I am so delighted you like me.......take a trip and try the horns if you want to try new tubas.....

Regards-
mark

[Bob Kolada]

Easy now!!

I'm not in the market for anything costing over 500. Still, my Jin Bao F had intonation or response problems on every partial 2-8. If a horn has both sharp and flat partials a simple tuning trigger isn't going to help. Why can't people honestly discuss intonation on here? Isn't this a site for enthusiasts?

Didn't you read my posts? I find that brand's Eb to be a nice enough horn and that brand's F to be an OK horn. I'd still rather buy a 981/981 clone's body and a 2341 valve set and pay someone to eventually put it together.

[Alex C]

I can't speak to the cost of production + R&D. I think the Gemeinhardt horns are attractively priced for the value they represent. They are completely built and assembled in China, Richard Barth makes no apologies for that and I wouldn't even get in to the possibilities for a US built horn for a number of reasons. For this instrument it is not in the cards.

So far, I have played nearly half a dozen of the Chinese built Gemeinhardt tubas and have been favorably impressed. Factoring the price into the equation, I've been highly impressed.

I have not found intonation issues in the tubas, regardless of key. The fifth partial tends to be flat varying a little from one horn to the next. I have not found an intonation issue otherwise. Someone could interpret these horns' characteristic wide slot as an intonation issue.

If the player's performance characteristics are not spot on, he will find a lot of intonation issues. A good player will find room to put the pitch where it needs to be. If you like a more narrow slot, I am told that the Dillon AGR (adjustable Gap Receiver) will add that characteristic to the horn. Personally, I prefer a more narrow slot.

One thing Mr. Barth has done is get the Chinese to upgrade their assembly quality and consistency. I recently played two F's in Elkhart for about 6 hours over a couple of of days. I had a hard time deciding until I realized that there was little difference. I had been hashing out miniscule issues between the two horns. They were both quite good and comparable to the other piston valve F tubas on the market, and at a lower price.

Is it the best horn on the market? No, that title is reserved for each individual to make for himself. Do these horns represent a great alternative choice for Eb, F, CC and BBb tubas... yes! Is the price competitive? Yes!

I especially like Mr. Barth's preferred choice for 5th valve actuator. It shows courage, practicality and humor.

Just wait until the 6/4 CC comes around...

[ASTuba]

My .02 on this, and I'm not going to get involved with the irrational posting that has come about from certain people on this forum.

These are really great tubas. As many of you know, I've spent a long time repairing, playing professionally, designing, modifying, and teaching tuba. These instruments that Richard Barth has created are some of the finest playing instruments I've ever had the privilege of playing. They are very responsive, ergonomically sound, in tune, and have a wonderful color, which is something that is lacking from many of the other newer manufacturers to the tuba market. Richard has done a remarkable job, and should be commended.

If they're good enough for Don Harry, whom I happen to know is very picky about how his tubas play, and that he won't say nice things about instruments that he feels are inadequate, and Gene Pokorny have both played this instrument, and enjoy it, says enough to me. I know from many people that half of Mr. Pokorny's career, he has been searching for an F tuba. The fact that he took this on tour lets you know what he thinks of it.

Final point, in this world that we live in now, is asking a Music Education student, who more than likely will not play past college in any professional manner, to plunk down $9,000.00 on a brand new Miraphone 5-valve CC tuba a sound idea? Yes, there are many great tubas being made out there, and I'm glad that some of you buy these expensive instruments, but there are a ton of people in the low brass world that just aren't willing to spend $9,000 on a tuba, so why not make a great instrument in a price point that makes sense?

Rant over, will go back to my hiding mode now...

[toobagrowl]

I'd like to try these horns as well as other new models. It's been YEARS since I have been to a tuba conference to try new horns.
I think, over time, these Chinese horns will gain more and more acceptance; especially the better models.

What did people think of the cheap B&S 'stencil' horns bought by US school systems across the country 30+ years ago?
What about Yamaha 30 years ago?
What about Cerveny 30 years ago?

The above brands were sold to schools back then because they were at affordable prices and played well, but I am sure there were plenty of people who thought they were crap. Those brands have proven themselves and are still used by schools and pros today.

People may look back 30 years from now on these better Chinese models and say they are very good tubas. I mean, it would be nice if they were made here in the US, but they are not. I'm just trying to keep an open mind and listen with my EARS instead of my eyes. If it plays and sounds good and is at least reasonably well-built, I don't really care what name is on the bell....or even if it doesn't have a name.
Good tubas stand the test of time...

[jamsav]

Thank you to the OP for being brave enough to express an opinion . Knowing full well that the jury here would subject him to all sorts of ridicule. For gods sake guys- its a public forum - we should read these posts and evaluate their worth based on where they are coming from . If a first time poster from a HS in Kansas tells me he just played the best tuba in the world , I ll crack up...if someone like the OP suggests the same , well, ...he's got my attention....
Leave it to the moderators to decide whats an ad and whats a positive opinion...
my two cents , thats a lot of coin for a tuba put together by someone getting paid seven cents an hour...

[MikeS]

I had a chance to try the Gemeinhardt F and thought it was a decent horn. It did have one quirk that I've found on every Chinese horn I've tried (a limited sample, maybe a dozen). The threading on the valves for the caps and bottoms was very poorly done. It was difficult to put them back on and I was in fear of cross threading someone else's horn. I have no idea why this seems to be such a toughie. I don't remember this problem with the very early Yamahas.

[bisontuba]

I had a chance to try the Gemeinhardt F and thought it was a decent horn. It did have one quirk that I've found on every Chinese horn I've tried (a limited sample, maybe a dozen). The threading on the valves for the caps and bottoms was very poorly done. It was difficult to put them back on and I was in fear of cross threading someone else's horn. I have no idea why this seems to be such a toughie. I don't remember this problem with the very early Yamahas.

Hi-
Excellent observation--Don and I mentioned this too early on, and that was one of the things I checked on the horns this past week ( and yes, very early Yamahas did the same thing)---the situation has been addressed and it has been changed-- now the cap & cap threads are fine.
Good eyes!
Mark

[Alex C]

I had a chance to try the Gemeinhardt F and thought it was a decent horn. It did have one quirk that I've found on every Chinese horn I've tried (a limited sample, maybe a dozen). The threading on the valves for the caps and bottoms was very poorly done. It was difficult to put them back on and I was in fear of cross threading someone else's horn. ...

ditto

[Dan Schultz]

... .... Some repairmen will NOT work on Chinese horns, it is a fact. Many refuse to do bell and dent work (slide alignment for trombones) on Jin Bao horns, so how would one convince these horns are made in china, but can still be repaired. I had a friend who ha a Jin Bao trombone, metal slightly warped, and no repairman would work on it due to it being Chinese. ......

Those repairmen will quickly find themselves without anything to work on! Simply replacing parts by ordering new ones does not make a person a repairman.

A true repairman can fix practically ANYTHING!

[Sharp]

A true repairman can fix practically ANYTHING!