Why Transpose?

[corbasse]

It's a habit like reading words is a habit, my boy. Like, when you see the word "tuba" you hear the word "tuba" in your head, right?

Great example. When I read that word, I do hear "tuba" Only, depending on the language the rest of the text is written in, I hear completely different pronounciations. When I read a word like "habit" I hear "habit", but simultanuously I also hear the Dutch word "gewoonte" which sounds not even close to any English word in use today. Further in the background translations in other languages sometimes appear as well.
It's a habit I've had to learn.

When I see a note on a staff, I hear that pitch in my head. So although my first clefs were treble and bass on piano, when I learned viola I had to learn to hear middle C when I saw a note on the middle line of the treble clef. When I learned horn I had to learn to hear middle C when I saw a note on the second line; etc. BTW, I still think having "perfect" pitch is a benefit....as long as it is used for "pitch recognition" and not "absolute frequency."

MA, who doesn't expect the color blind to be able to understand seeing colors either

I understand completely, allthough I only have the ability to hear the correct pitch of a printed note if I have a french horn in my hands..
The problem is not perfect pitch, but the development nowadays that a lot of people get completely glued to the one notation they use for their instrument. Especially some treble clef, non-transposing instrument players seem to be guilty of this. For them, a note on the first line is an E, and nothing else. At best they have a vague, abstract notion that for some it might be different.
Explaining the existance of transposition and/or other clefs (7 or more of them ) to them is a frustrating experience. If you couple this "glued on 2nd line treble clef" attitude to perfect pitch you have a recipe for a lot of frustration and confusion on both sides
"This note is on the first line so it's 330 Hz"
"Nope, this one isn't. There is a C clef on the 2nd line so this one is 220 Hz."
"?????????"

[Chuck(G)]

It's a habit like reading words is a habit, my boy. Like, when you see the word "tuba" you hear the word "tuba" in your head, right? When I see a note on a staff, I hear that pitch in my head. So although my first clefs were treble and bass on piano, when I learned viola I had to learn to hear middle C when I saw a note on the middle line of the treble clef. When I learned horn I had to learn to hear middle C when I saw a note on the second line; etc. BTW, I still think having "perfect" pitch is a benefit....as long as it is used for "pitch recognition" and not "absolute frequency."

You knw, sight-singing (solfege usually) used to be part of a traditional musical education. The ability to look look at a score and know what the music soiunds like without playing it coupled with the ability to "play by ear" is a pretty potent cocktail that will get one through a whole lot of technical hassle involving transposition and whatnot.

After all, most people can sing simple melodies in any key with scarcely a thought. Coupling that skill with reading musical notation and then with the ability to play what one hears in one's head is just about unbeatable against any other approach.

I'm curious if solfege is still a requirement of collegiate instrumental performance programs.

[Tubadan]

Since the easiest transposition is the octave, I would prefer parts to be written in concert pitch in either treble or bass clef and shifted by octaves to cut down on the leger lines. For example:
High Trumpet: treble clef down an octave
Alto sax: bass clef down an octave
Tenor Sax: treble clef up an octave
Bari Sax: bass clef
French Horn: bass clef down an octave or regular octave
Tuba: bass clef up an octave
Lead Trombone: bass clef down an octave

-Eric

How would you explain to a beginner sax player why the alto sax part is written in bass clef and tenor sax in treble, when all through elementary school they were taught that the smaller instrument plays the high notes and the big instruments play the low notes?

Besides, the saxes read on the treble staff to begin with as transposed instruments. Why screw with what already works?

[Chuck(G)]

Nobody has really gotten to the real reasson why there are transposing instruments.
THink about it, every insturment that is a transposing instrument (OK ,except for bass and TC baritone) were at one time non-chromatic instruments. THey had to have multiple instuments to allow them to play different pieces of liturature.
THe parts were published as "Trumpet in C", so even when trumpet players had a chromatic instrument availbale to them, they still had thousands of the old parts, so they bought chromatic C trumpets and Eb trumpets and kept reading the same music.

Perhaps for brass, but your argument doesn't appear to hold much water when it comes to woodwinds. Saxes have always been chromatic instruments, as have most other woodwinds, yet transposition is very common there.

I put it that transposing instruments are so written because it permits a player to use the same fingerings on a wide range of instruments and has nothing to do with chromaticism.

While it's true that orchestral parts were written in a transposing key for non-valved brass, the reasoning was the same--a horn player could tell which partial to play regardless of what crook he had installed, thus simplifying things enormously.

[Chuck(G)]

It's true that saxes have always been transposing, but the fingering systems were based on other woodwinds that were not.
THe "family" theory seems to explain Saxes the best.

Let's see here, a C flute is non-transposing, but a G alto (also a Boehm creation is transposing, the Db piccolo certainly is, as are the C bass and Eb soprano), recorders have always been transposing (and chromatic). Clarinets AFAIK, have always been transposing; oboes aren't, but the cor anglais is as were some shawms. Bassoons aren't, but contrabassoons are, and I believe the tenoroon is. I'm not sure about the various members of the old Dulcian family, to which the bassoon belongs, but it would make sense to expect the higher-pitched members to be.

I'm not sure that I follow your argument.

[Shockwave]

How would you explain to a beginner sax player why the alto sax part is written in bass clef and tenor sax in treble, when all through elementary school they were taught that the smaller instrument plays the high notes and the big instruments play the low notes?

Besides, the saxes read on the treble staff to begin with as transposed instruments. Why screw with what already works?

Oh it would piss sax players off incredibly because with multiple sets of fingerings to learn it would put them....in our position!

-Eric

[phoenix]

If instruments did not transpose, there would be a lot of ledger lines, which aren't too easy to read if you're not used to them. For example, french horn transposes up a perfect fifth from concert pitch. If they did not transpose, there would be many ledger lines to read and numerous clefs to learn. A piccolo sounds one octave higher than where the note is written. If they didn't tranpose, their whole music would be ledger lines. Same with contrabasson, except they sound one octave lower.

[corbasse]

....Let's see here, a C flute is non-transposing, but a G alto (also a Boehm creation is transposing, the Db piccolo certainly is, as are the C bass and Eb soprano), recorders have always been transposing (and chromatic). Clarinets AFAIK, have always been transposing; ...

There used to be C clarinets. Beethoven, Schubert & Co. regulary use them. What I think what happened is that players prefered some instruments above others. I've heard plenty of colleagues in period orchestras moan about the bad playing characteristics of most C clarinets. When in the 19th century through improvements/changes woodwinds became stable and equal tempered enough to play any key without too many cross-fingerings, out of tune notes etc., they ditched the worst sounding ones.
They kept the best sounding, and these weren't necessarily the ones in C...