York Copy

[Daniel C. Oberloh]

I have rebuilt and restored quite a few York tubas in my life, probably more then just about anyone around today. I have noticed a slight color difference in the original York tubas metal and would say its pretty close to standard 70/30 (copper/zinc) give or take. I don't remember ever seeing a JWYork tuba made of red or gold brass; not saying they don't exist. I recall York trombones and trumpets in rb or gb but only on later models and have seen many of the early Conn instruments that were of high copper alloy as were a few King tubas and helicons from the 10's and teens that I restored a few years back. This, for me, makes the Kanstul story a bit of a head-scratcher and all I can think is that the horn used in the model was possibly a design acceptsion and not the rule. I think I should give em a call and get the real scoop.

Daniel C Oberloh
Oberloh Woodwind and Brass Works
http://www.oberloh.com" target="_blank

[Bandmaster]

I have rebuilt and restored quite a few York tubas in my life, probably more then just about anyone around today. I have noticed a slight color difference in the original York tubas metal and would say its pretty close to standard 70/30 (copper/zinc) give or take. I don't remember ever seeing a JWYork tuba made of red or gold brass; not saying they don't exist. I recall York trombones and trumpets in rb or gb but only on later models and have seen many of the early Conn instruments that were of high copper alloy as were a few King tubas and helicons from the 10's and teens that I restored a few years back. This, for me, makes the Kanstul story a bit of a head-scratcher and all I can think is that the horn used in the model was possibly a design acceptsion and not the rule. I think I should give em a call and get the real scoop.

Daniel C Oberloh
Oberloh Woodwind and Brass Works
http://www.oberloh.com" target="_blank" target="_blank

Dan, I know quite a few people over at Kanstul and the word I was given is that they did an extensive metallurgical study on samples of brass from old York instruments to come up with the information they have used to place their rather large order of sheet brass from their supplier. I was told that their supplier ran a special batch with their exact specifications for the alloy.

[GC]

It's actually a bronze alloy, according to information posted here previously. I've seen one of these bells raw, and the pre-polish color is definitely not red brass or standard cartridge brass.

[pjv]

So if the Yorks were a sort of bronze brass that might explain why the Kanstul's are so reddish. I might add that Kanstul's bronze bells don't look that red. Hmmm. These special alloy bells look more like their copper bells.

The Reynolds Contempora "Bronz-o-lyte" bells (ah, the tangerine trombone...) also had that light reddish color. Red bronze is 92% copper & 8% tin (correct?), but I don't know if anyone ever tested the Bronz-o-lites. I read that it might of been 80%/20%.

Sorry for getting off track, but I was just generally curious as to why my Kanstul bell is red and all the York bells I've seen aren't. I think GC has answered this question.

[UDELBR]

Red bronze is 92% copper & 8% tin (correct?)

Red bronze ?

[Steve Marcus]

I don't remember ever seeing a JWYork tuba made of red or gold brass; not saying they don't exist.

I performed Rachmaninoff Symphonic Dances on and almost traded for a red brass 6/4 York that Bob Rusk had cut to CC. It was sold to a college student on the west coast and, I think, has changed hands at least once since then.

york 6-4.jpg

[Jess Haney]

Years ago, I heard yamaha was making a copy of the CSO York tuba that was supposed to rival the original york. I am not sure if it ever made it to production, but I would start there.

It is the Yamaha 826 I believe retail $35000.

[Steve Marcus]

Steve, that tuba, in some of it appearance essentials, bears a lot of resemblance to the Big Mouth Brass 6/4 CC.

Bloke, you're correct. I spent some time playing the BMB 6/4 CC and BBb.

The driver of the CSO Yorks verifies that the BMB 6/4 horns are not dissimlar to that other horn in girth and weight.

Dick Barth has slightly reduced the diameter of the BMB bell in comparison to the "old American" tuba that he used as a model.

[Daniel C. Oberloh]

I haven't ever done repairs on 6/4 York tubas (though I've played and "looked at" some), but I've messed with/restored several 19" bell 4/4 21/32" bore models (Eb/BBb/previously-cut-to-CC) as well as some of the not-quite-19"-bell "tall" (3/4" bore) models...as well as some of the York and York stencil sousaphones...and also the "Grand Rapids" line, et al... All of the York metal that I've encountered has been as Dan describes. I've heard "this" and "that" about Kanstul's reddish-colored metal. I just don't see any historical tie-in - either with York or Holton.

So, this makes it even more of a head-scratcher (for me anyway). If both Joe and I have no experiece with any such reddish metal with respect to York tubas, after having a good deal of experience with York tubas, what is the sorce of this ''special'' alloy and what instruments were used in the extensive research? I'm not trying to stir anything up here, I'm just am having difficulty understanding how this came to be, without EVER seeing any such material used on any examples that have been on my bench... or Joe's. So, is it the metal or the design(shape)?

Dan'l

[ginnboonmiller]

I wouldn't ever assert that I have even the slightest knowledge of metalurgy or whatever, but could the color difference even possibly be a function of aging?

[Steve Marcus]

I had that York in my possession for only 3 days several years ago, so my memory of the information about it may not be totally accurate, including the name of the brass tech who cut the horn.

I can tell you that it was a rose brass finish. I thought that it was very attractive, let alone any metalurgical contribution to the tone quality of the instrument.

Tayler Stokes, who was finishing his Masters in Tuba Performance at DePaul, said that he wanted a smaller horn. He and I traded his 6/4 York CC for my 4/4 Nirschl CC. Although I liked that York very much, I was convinced by the person who had test-played my Nirschl when I first considered buying it from its owner in 1999 that I should never get rid of that Nirschl. In retrospect, as much as I really liked that York, I would truly be missing that 4/4 Nirschl. It continues to be my main horn.

Here are excerpts from the advertisement that Tayler posted when he was offering his York for sale or trade:

According to my sources, this BBb tuba was made in 1910, and cut by Bob Sloop (sp?) at Dillon’s in ’90 or ’91. At the time, or so I am told, large valve sets were not readily available, so what you see on this horn are the original valves (2, 3 & 4), with one additional valve (1) which is allegedly also a York valve from a younger tuba. I have no confirmation on that – it is merely the speculation offered to me. In the spring of ’07 I had the valve set replated and essentially reconstructed. They also went through and made sure all the plumbing was up to snuff, since the first valve is not brazened to the rest (hope I got the lingo right…). In the winter of ’07 I had the fifth valve (whatever it was) replaced with a Nirschl valve. Thus, the valve set is basically brand new, completely up to code and with excellent compression. The first four valves are vented, the rotor is not. This horn also has an AGR. It is somewhat fickle toward climate, I think. When I was in Oregon it worked alright, but needed some persuading to get it going (nothing violent, mind you!). When I went on tour to Asia it worked like a dream – no fuss whatsoever. In Chicago I have to take it to a repairman to get it moving. I went to California not long ago, and it worked there too. I have no idea what is up with that, but there you have it. The mouthpipe has been moved up a little. This made no quantifiable change to the playing characteristics of the horn. All slides are easily reachable, and have plenty of pull. I have had all upward slides aligned. With proper lubrication they really move.

There are a few things about this horn that really stand out to me. The intonation on this horn is awesome. It has really wide slots across the whole register of the instrument. The result is that you can put any given note just about anywhere you want it and you will not pay for it in tone quality. In the wrong hands this is a disaster. In the right hands it is a force to be reckoned with. Personally, I find this trait very desirable. Like many other large CC tubas, the G at the bottom of the staff likes to bit a bit low – but this is only an issue if you aren’t paying attention, since it can be played in tune with minimal effort. Sometimes I have used 1+3 on that note if I was unsure about it for one reason or another. On occasion I have used 1+5 for Eb just below the staff, but that is more for tone color than intonation.

Another selling point for me is the general ease of playing this instrument offers. It is very easy to play musically with this horn. This was immediately apparent to me. In fact, I have used this horn in a variety of settings very well. Obviously a big tuba is at home in large ensembles, but I have also used this tuba in brass quintet, trombone quartet (playing 4th) and as a solo vehicle with great success. The sound quality is some how just so pliable. Oh, and yeah, it has that York sound. An observation that has been brought to me now and again is that the low register has an almost string-bass like sound to it, and for this reason, I always felt that this tuba really shone in orchestra. I suppose that in not a surprise.

Ironically, rather than going with a smaller CC, Tayler purchased a Nirschl York copy soon after selling his York.

I hope that this information is helpful for those curious about this York tuba.

[pjv]

http://kanstul.com/category.php?categor ... roundBrass" target="_blank" target="_blank

4th (&5th) paragraph

-Pat

[opus37]

Brass type and quality was a advertising point in the early part of the 20th century. Martin advertised "Trumpet Brass" or yellow brass which was according to them harder to work and form. Martins tend to sound pretty good. I would say as good as a York of similar vintage. The mystery of the lost formula suggests to me that York did have their secrets. I suspect the combination of metal and design are the real secret to the sound. Kanstul says in their ads that they have done both in their pursuit of the American sound. This thread started on the quest for a York copy. I think we have found that there are credible copies available if you are looking for the sound.

[tofu]

I have occasionally heard the brass used in some of these instruments of a certain vintage, and not just York, referred to as "shell casing brass."

Is this what is referred to as "dirty brass"?

[Tim Jackson]

Just thought I'd post this bad boy again.

Here are some pictures and info on a York 6/4 I picked up on eBay some years back. It is a great example of an older York because it is all original, no repairs, and no alterations. The last owner was a collector of antique oddities somewhere in the Midwest. When I received the horn it appeared to have been sitting on a shelf wrapped in plastic for 30-40 years. The slides and valves appear to have about ten years of use on them.
There are no signs of any repair or buffing to the original finish.
Serial number 50974 1913-1915
Finish: Satin Silver with bright accents
It has a 22.5 bell and a height of 39 inches. With the tuning donut disengaged it plays perfectly in tune at A-440. It features a long pull 3rd valve slide. The intonation is very good.
These pictures show the detail of which surfaces were originally satin or bright. The York 91 mouthpiece was found at Dillon Music after I purchased the horn. It is a large shank mouthpiece with a cup shaped interior. It really does work better for me on this horn than any other mouthpiece I have tried. I really think it is the mouthpiece designed by York for this tuba. The horn has a very colorful resonant tone with a deep low end and a singing high range. It is a joy to play in the symphony and it is surprising how many pieces can be managed with only 3 valves. Sometimes I wonder if the resonance of this horn may in some way be attributed to the fact that it only has 3 valves.

[tofu]

Beautiful horn - looks like a tuba should!

[Frank Ortega]

Things I find interesting about the model 91 BBb 6/4:

They are usually top action.
The rare front action is a slightly different wrap.
There is very minimal bracing, but the bracing does seem to be perfectly balanced.
There is no top bow guard/cap, just a wire.
There are very few 4 valve models.

I think all of these things make the horn more resonant and easy to slot notes.

These same rules apply to my Martin 6/4 BBb, except that it has 4 valves and a smaller bore and bell diameter. The top bow cap of my Martin may have been removed during a precious overhaul, but who's to say. Top action and front action wraps are different on these instruments, and for some reason the front action models play better. Is it possible that these companies shared some of the same engineers or workman when working on these rare beasts and each had a signature way of putting them together?

Also, I believe Paul Scott had some of his Martin Brass analyzed years ago and it came up with a higher copper content as well, although Martin speciafically advertised using yellow brass for better tone quality. I hope he'll correct me if I'm wrong about that.

Just for fun, here's that Martin/Nirschl comparison photo I took a while back.

[bort]

Frank, are the valves comfortable on the Martin? Looks like they are pretty high up on the horn compared to the Nirschl.

[Paul Scott]

I've had several bits of brass analyzed over the years from Martins and from a York bell that I had cut down. The brass alloy for both was 80/20, roughly 80% copper, 20% zinc, although there were other trace elements (like antimony and lead) that showed up too. Actually the zinc content was closer to 18% with remainder of trace elements taking up the missing 2%. Ironically, this alloy is designated in metallurgists books as "low brass"

I've been told that the "hardness" or temper of the metal has lot more to do with the response on instruments than the actual metal composition.

I do have an early Martin catalogue that advertises the use of "yellow brass" exclusively but they dropped that claim later on. Never had any pieces from a Martin of that vintage out for testing but perhaps I will have that done.

[opus37]

I recently had my 1912 Martin restored by Lee Stofer. Part of that restoration was to shorten the tuning slide to allow it to tune at A=440. Lee may still have the pieces he removed. These parts aren't from the bell, but they may be representative of the metal used at the time. Check with Lee, he might still have the pieces.