Longevity of Chinese instruments

[Untersatz]

Last month he needed wiper blades. He thought it would be as reliable as his mom's 2 year old Cadillac has been.

Wiper blades.........really??? Automobile manufactures don't make wiper blades.
That's like saying that a particular brand of tuba isn't good or reliable because you had to oil the valves

[Untersatz]

Skyrocket purple treehouse garden hose inner tube walrus tusk.

ROFLMAO

[Heavy_Metal]

Skyrocket purple treehouse garden hose inner tube walrus tusk.

Just saw this in a spam e-mail...............

[Lee Stofer]

I have only reluctantly worked on Chinese-made instruments, particularly the earlier ones, as they are often a minefield of problems. There have been production-, and quality problems with instruments of all makes, from anywhere on the globe, over the past two centuries. However, I know what to expect with most European and American-made instruments, and now Yamaha and Jupiter instruments. These companies paid their dues, and make very respectable instruments. The jury is still out on what mainland Chinese instruments, if any, will be considered the most durable in 20 or 30 years. When some company builds a tuba there that is to the same exacting specifications and quality as the best of American and European makers of the past century, there will be an accompanying pricetag, and a few buyers. When they build tubas that resemble really good consumer tubas from Europe and the US of the past 50 years, and the quality is sufficiently good, the price will rise to the point that they are not inexpensive any more. That's the reality of the market.

[bort]

Lee is right -- this kind of reminds me of Hyundai cars about 20 years ago -- they were not reliable and broke down all the time. But, they were CHEAP.

Fast forward to today -- Hyundai is a solid middle-of-the-road (no pun intended) option. It's night and day from where they started in the US, and they had to work hard to get there, both in engineering and advertising. I believe they were one of the first companies to offer long-term warranties, like 10 year/100,000 miles, which in part was to try and lure customers who were hesitant to buy a brand that had severe problems not too long ago.

Though some Hyundai's are still inexpensive, most are about the same cost as every other car now. There are even some $60k+ models, which is kind of crazy to me, when I compare the other options at $60k (apparently they are nice cars though).

Bargains do exist, but quality has a price. We have a saying around my house, "Buy it nice or buy it twice." That is, when it's possible, I'd rather spend more up-front for quality, instead of buying something "ok" and replacing it after not too long.

[chronolith]

Seems to me that if you care enough (for selfish reasons) to wonder about the longevity of a particular instrument or family of instruments, then you are probably the type to take decent care of your instruments. Barring any major manufacturing snafus and neglect, I think this will do more to extend the longevity of the instrument than just about anything else.

[royjohn]

You have to look at what you are comparing the Chinese instrument to and at the time value of money . . . if you were to buy a new Chinese clone of a 186 Mirafone vs a new 186, you'd spend $6,200 less (~$1800 vs ~$8000). If that $6,200 were invested at 10%, the Chinese clone would only have to last a little less than 3 years before the $6,200 you saved could generate enough to buy another @ $1800 . . . If you could buy a used Chinese clone for $1200 and a used "real" 186 for $4,000, the Chinese clone would need to last 4.25 years.

I have a "Golden Cup" Chinese clone. The tuba (BBb) plays well and I bought it about 4 years old from a BM student who was moving up to a CC tuba for graduate school. However, I would NEVER give this tuba to a middle school or high school student. The metal is pretty thin. Small pings in the bell can be burnished out with the back of a tablespoon. Put some cello tape on the back side of the dent, use your tablespoon and you can see the spoon moving around like a mole under your lawn. Easy. I shudder to think what a well-meaning but clumsy 12 year old could do with one of these. OTOH, it has worked well for me (a retiree) and I haven't put any significant dents in it . . . I don't play in a band, so I don't have to schlepp it around and anyway, it has a nice padded case. I wouldn't expect another adult in the back row of a community band to clang bells with me . . .

[Jose the tuba player]

last year I bought a king 1140 clone labeled Vespro from a guy who had it in his closet for the last 10 years.
the lacquer looks new but the valves are worn and always turn a nasty color.
the metal is fine but the bracing needs work.
3rd valve bracing was broken off because it was never aligned properly.
the worst is it doesn't play in tune at all, needs a conn tuning bit to be used to play tolerably in tune,
so i am guessing that Chinese tubas will all need valve work down the road as well as bracing redone.

[cjk]

last year I bought a king 1140 clone labeled Vespro from a guy who had it in his closet for the last 10 years.
the lacquer looks new but the valves are worn and always turn a nasty color.
the metal is fine but the bracing needs work.
3rd valve bracing was broken off because it was never aligned properly.
the worst is it doesn't play in tune at all, needs a conn tuning bit to be used to play tolerably in tune,
so i am guessing that Chinese tubas will all need valve work down the road as well as bracing redone.

Vespro was a house brand of Orpheus Music in Texas. Every Vespro I ever saw was made by VMI.

So, your piece of crap is probably a German piece of crap.

[oldpatterns]

I'll jump in here. We purchased a Chinese made tuba for my son over 3 years ago from Anthem Music. My son started playing tuba in 4th grade. As you can imagine, a young inexperienced musician put this tuba through hell and back again. It has his shared of dents, dings and survived at least one major drop. We've learned how to repair and oil it over the years. I wish it came with good instructions on how to take care of it. His teacher is used to piston tubas, and didn't give us great advice on taking care of a rotary valve tuba. He has a 4 valve 3/4 size rotary tuba. It has provided him with a solid at home instrument. The quality of the sound from this tuba is a bit "stuffy" vs. the schools Miraphone. The Miraphone 186 sounds much better - but that has it's problems due to being a ill repaired school tuba being man handled by 20 years of school kids. Our Chinese made tuba has been used regularly for 3 years and has not had any major repair issues. Yes, the case is falling apart. We lost a wheel, and replaced it and the zipper is broken. The handle placement on the case is poor and causes it to tip. We have a backpack case for it now. I predict it will work just fine for him for home use through high school. Thanks to having a home tuba, starting young and a strong interest in playing it he was able to pass his districts audition and earn first chair!

regards,

Michelle
Chelmsford, MA

[Jose the tuba player]

last year I bought a king 1140 clone labeled Vespro from a guy who had it in his closet for the last 10 years.
the lacquer looks new but the valves are worn and always turn a nasty color.
the metal is fine but the bracing needs work.
3rd valve bracing was broken off because it was never aligned properly.
the worst is it doesn't play in tune at all, needs a conn tuning bit to be used to play tolerably in tune,
so i am guessing that Chinese tubas will all need valve work down the road as well as bracing redone.

Vespro was a house brand of Orpheus Music in Texas. Every Vespro I ever saw was made by VMI.

So, your piece of crap is probably a German piece of crap.

It does say made in Germany but i always assumed that was a lie, but i guess even Germans made tubas can suck.

[royjohn]

cjk wrote:

Jose the tuba player wrote:
last year I bought a king 1140 clone labeled Vespro from a guy who had it in his closet for the last 10 years.
the lacquer looks new but the valves are worn and always turn a nasty color.
the metal is fine but the bracing needs work.
3rd valve bracing was broken off because it was never aligned properly.
the worst is it doesn't play in tune at all, needs a conn tuning bit to be used to play tolerably in tune,
so i am guessing that Chinese tubas will all need valve work down the road as well as bracing redone.

Vespro was a house brand of Orpheus Music in Texas. Every Vespro I ever saw was made by VMI.

So, your piece of crap is probably a German piece of crap.

It does say made in Germany but i always assumed that was a lie, but i guess even Germans made tubas can suck.

I don't want to criticize folks for sharing their experience, but I thought Jose's conclusions on the Vespro were rather sweeping generalizations that are unfair to Chinese tubas in general.

1. The Vespro was made over ten years ago, and Chinese tubas have improved greatly in that time.
2. Even now, some makers do well and some not so well; some models (designs) have worked out well and some have not. What this Vespro is/does should not be an indictment on all Chinese tubas.
3. Jose does not say what he paid for the 1140 clone; maybe he got what he paid for.
4. To say that all Chinese tubas will need valve work down the road is a big stretch from saying that one tuba that is over ten years old has cheaply made valves.
5. Now we have folks saying that this "Chinese tuba" was actually made in Germany.

With apologies for criticizing, but I think if we're going to be fair, we have to be careful. Not saying all Chinese tubas are great, but some are a good value for money.

[MackBrass]

I often read about "cheap" instruments having "thin" metal.

I've just never found that to be the case.

St. Pete's (the pre-Chinese "cheap" instruments) were said to be "thin". They are not (not that I've seen).

I haven't encountered any "thin" Chinese instruments, either. ...poorly-braced...?? occasionally. "thin"...?? nope.

...a Gronitz PCK that I sold to a sometimes student (who took it to Canada, auditioned with it, and was offered a job http://www.osm.ca/en/bio/austin-howle )...?? now that tuba is THIN.

+1

Also talk about thin metal one needs to really look at the Kalison as well as some of the mid 80s miraphone blat machines. I can say this as i have owned both and both were made of very thin metals. If you take care of your horn no matter the maker, it will take care of you.

[Ulli]

[quote=" i guess even Germans made tubas can suck.[/quote]

I guess even parts of German made tubas come from China.

[Cthuba]

Can you buy Chinese valve clusters out of curiosity?

[toobagrowl]

I've noticed the price increase on some of the higher-end Chinese brass instruments. Part of it is improving quality and part of it is the increase in metals. All metals are increasing in value because less of it is in the mountains/ground and is becoming harder to mine.
But it does seem that it is taking longer for the Chinese instruments to improve in quality compared to others. I remember when Jupiter brasses came out sometime in the 1990s and they were more-or-less "crappy". But now they seem to have a good rep for quality instruments Yamaha started copying and improving on existing designs and got good at it early on. Even the early Yamahas from the 1970s are quality horns, and now they make some of the most consistent, expensive instruments.

[Dan Schultz]

Can you buy Chinese valve clusters out of curiosity?

I don't know about the Chinese but I have seen that it's getting more difficult to buy complete valve clusters and parts for custom horns. It used to be pretty easy to buy stuff from Yamaha but recently they have been more adamant in asking for serial numbers in order to be able to provide the 'right parts'.

Manufacturers may becoming aware that some of us who build custom horns are their competition.

They want to sell new horns.... not parts.... unless, of course, they can make a lot of money doing so.

[Wyvern]

Can you buy Chinese valve clusters out of curiosity?

I can get to repair instrument, or for development purposes for new Wessex model, but not supply for private projects.

[cjk]

Seems pretty easy to buy full Chinese valve sections with the tuba still attached.

[Cthuba]

Thanks for the advice Bloke