A bit of jazz tuba for a change :)

[quesonegro]

I'm not denying anyone to take part in whatever scene they want to, nor am I saying that tuba should not have a part in jazz, quite the opposite actually, I think there should be many more jazz tuba voices in the world, which was exactly my point, that there are so few jazz tuba players out there, and I don't mean jazz tuba player as in "playing tuba in band that plays jazz", I mean players that improvise, have their own musical/harmonic concept, make records, have their own bands etc...I think people should do what they like and enjoy and I don't expect anyone to follow a path that is not their own...I just think that as the tuba has evolved and progressed in the classical field, I'd expect something similar in the jazz department, regardless of genre, and I don't see that yet...

I know of no other instrument where someone would call themselves a "jazz player" unless they also improvise, usually being able to play over changes, unless you're part of the free scene...I think we should aim higher, just as the jazz trombone has made huge leaps the last 50 years!

As to forums and knowing what level of knowledge someone has, that is certainly true. You have no reason to know who I am and I also knew nothing about you. I didn't, however, assume that your knowledge of jazz was limited to Kenny G etc, or argued that your opinions were based on ignorance!

//Mattis Cederberg (Bass trombone/Tuba/Cimbasso - WDR Big Band. I work full time in a german radio big band and have recorded with artists like Joe Zawinul, McCoy Tyner, Ron Carter, Michael and Randy Brecker (with whom the band received a grammy), Jon Faddis, Eddie Daniels, Mike Manieri, Arturo Sandoval, Toots Thielemans, James Moody, Lee Konitz, Dianne Reeves, Avishai Cohen, Christian McBride, Roy Hargrove, Benny Golson, Maria Schneider, Dave Liebman, Joe Lovano, John Scofield, Wycliffe Gordon, Tom Harrell and many, many others.)

[quesonegro]

I'm not denying anyone to take part in whatever scene they want to, nor am I saying that tuba should not have a part in jazz, quite the opposite actually, I think there should be many more jazz tuba voices in the world, which was exactly my point, that there are so few jazz tuba players out there, and I don't mean jazz tuba player as in "playing tuba in band that plays jazz", I mean players that improvise, have their own musical/harmonic concept, make records, have their own bands etc...I think people should do what they like and enjoy and I don't expect anyone to follow a path that is not their own...I just think that as the tuba has evolved and progressed in the classical field, I'd expect something similar in the jazz department, regardless of genre, and I don't see that yet...

I know of no other instrument where someone would call themselves a "jazz player" unless they also improvise, usually being able to play over changes, unless you're part of the free scene...I think we should aim higher, just as the jazz trombone has made huge leaps the last 50 years!

As to forums and knowing what level of knowledge someone has, that is certainly true. You have no reason to know who I am and I also knew nothing about you. I didn't, however, assume that your knowledge of jazz was limited to Kenny G etc, or argue that your opinions were based on ignorance!

//Mattis Cederberg (Bass trombone/Tuba/Cimbasso - WDR Big Band. I work full time in a german radio big band and have recorded with artists like Joe Zawinul, McCoy Tyner, Ron Carter, Michael and Randy Brecker (with whom the band received a grammy), Jon Faddis, Eddie Daniels, Mike Manieri, Arturo Sandoval, Toots Thielemans, James Moody, Lee Konitz, Dianne Reeves, Avishai Cohen, Christian McBride, Roy Hargrove, Benny Golson, Maria Schneider, Wycliffe Gordon, Tom Harrell and many, many others.)

[tofu]

Thanks, but I think there is an amazing array of great brass jazz soloists, both in the present and the past! So many great trumpet players and trombone players...not so many tuba players though, which is a shame, and a bit surprising! Considering all the great virtuoso stuff the classical players can play, there's no real reason why there aren't any jazz tuba players playing the **** out of the changes just as the other instrumentalists do! Even considering range and projection, think of bass players, plenty of great ones out there! In the end there is just our own perception and ideas, or lack there of, that get in the way...and THAT we can certainly change, if we wish to and don't settle for less! I'm just a self-tought hack on the tuba and cimbasso, but it's never too late to learn new things!!

Cheers

//Mattis

Amen to all that.

I think there were a lot of great jazz tuba players from back in the day who have gotten lost in the haze of time because of the lack of recordings and any exposure outside of local audiences. All those guys who played in little clubs in Chicago, Kansas City, New Orleans, St. Louis etc. and weren't recorded or written about back in the teens through the thirties. Back in the 70's I found a really old LP in the dustbin of the college bookstore of a guy named Singleton Palmer. I guess a guy fronting a jazz band with a big old bell front tuba was not cool looking enough to be even worth the 25 cents asking price to most. A record I would go on to wear out.

He started playing tuba in groups back in the 20's and would play with Clark Terry and Jimmy Forrest and then he played in Count Basie's orchestra and played with blues musicians such as Big Joe Williams and Sonny Boy Williamson. In 1950 or so he started fronting his own 6 man jazz group with tuba as lead and the stuff is excellent. He was a multi-instrumentalist and reminds me of todays Howard Johnson and yet you never hear anything about Singleton Palmer -even in a tuba forum. In a way maybe todays jazz tuba is starting to get back to its roots.

[tokuno]

Hadn't seen this posted. Apologies if it duplicates someone else's post

Bob Stewart on NPR, Aug 30, 2014: Taking the Tuba Above And Beyond The Low End
http://www.npr.org/2014/08/30/344317254 ... he-low-end

[PaulTkachenko]

I might give Rumberger a call when I get time and see what they say ... although it looks like they don't want to talk to me (unless I'm a dealer) by the look of their website!

I use one on my bass sax, but I have an ampliphonic on one of my tuba mouthpieces - the rumberger would certainly be better, certainly for FX, but there is a chance that the acoustic sound would be quite useable if ported in a strategic place.

I worry about phasing issues if I combine the pickup mid-horn with a mike on the bell.

[ginnboonmiller]

Interesting discussion, and I feel compelled to join in, only because I actually am a jazz historian/musicologist, or at least I was for a while, as the job market started drying up for us.

Anyway, Mattis absolutely has a point, whether tuba players want to admit it or not. Among talented tuba players that can play over changes, the only one I can think of who might apply is Michel Godard, who generally doesn't play over changes. Otherwise, a couple really good doublers come to mind, specifically Dave Bargeron, but among the really fantastic jazz tuba players, it's really tough to think of someone that manages changes with the facility that you can expect from a realy great tuba player.

I also play free jazz, and tons of folks on this forum will just say that I can't play, but whatever -- I've been trying to get around bop style improvising for years, and I can tell you that for some reason I can't put my finger on, it's really, really hard. No idea why, but history seems to show me that it's not something for me to feel shame about, since no one else can really handle it, either.

That's not to say that there aren't good jazz tuba players. I count myself as one, but I know to stay in the background and let others take the solos while I'm still working my stuff out. Which has taken, what, 20 years so far, and will take many, many more before I feel like an actual master.

[amg123]

Marcus Rojas can walk great lines and play great phrases. Check out Dave Douglas' Brass Ecstasy band. Its sorta trad jazz, sorta bop, sorta free, but really damn amazing. I also saw János Mazura completely tear **** up at ITEC this year. I'll post links. Sam Pilafian is another jazz guy that comes to mind.

Marcus: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XwZ374_gx0

Janos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOPo5OotLvA

[quesonegro]

I might give Rumberger a call when I get time and see what they say ... although it looks like they don't want to talk to me (unless I'm a dealer) by the look of their website!

I use one on my bass sax, but I have an ampliphonic on one of my tuba mouthpieces - the rumberger would certainly be better, certainly for FX, but there is a chance that the acoustic sound would be quite useable if ported in a strategic place.

I worry about phasing issues if I combine the pickup mid-horn with a mike on the bell.

I used the Rumberger for a clean trombone sound on tour last summer, a good sound engineer can usually make it work just fine, but if you can find someone that is more of an expert in acoustics/placement please share, it'd be great to know more!!

[quesonegro]

As I see it, without even going into who plays changes or not, the names listed in this thread are just still a handful of players, even globally, over a period of 60 o so years. That's not a lot, folks! In my opinion this is due to outdated ideas about what the tuba should/can do and I think it's time to change that, push the envelope, find new paths!! There are people doing that already in a more free impro setting and working with loopers etc and I hope we will see a similar development in the more mainstream jazz realm as well! Let's aim for the stars!!!

[amg123]

my opinion this is due to outdated ideas about what the tuba should/can do and I think it's time to change that, push the envelope, find new paths!!

I working on it at my school! After tuba, my second primary instrument is jazz guitar and I recently made the switch to study and play bass/tuba in my schools small jazz ensembles. I'll post recordings sometime.

[quesonegro]

That's great!!

//Mattis

[tofu]

In my opinion this is due to outdated ideas about what the tuba should/can do and I think it's time to change that, push the envelope, find new paths!!

We need Armstrong/Miles/Monk/Ellington/Brubeck etc. to be reincarnated as tuba players for the "rebirth of the cool"!

[quesonegro]

They might already be, they just don't know it yet!!

[PaulTkachenko]

Where on the trombone did you put it?

I'm a bit worried about it picking up a lot of tuba valve noise ...

[quesonegro]

On the tuning slide...