Long Read - Beating the Gong a Little More...

[CA Transplant]

Cheap horns have a long history. They've come from everywhere. At the turn of the 19th to 20th century, they were made in Czechoslovakia. Everyone was selling stencil horns from there. Some were good. Some were crappy. Most were crappy, frankly. There were many companies and many stencil brands. Now, there's only a couple of companies and some of the output is great, but Amati is still making cheap student horns of variable quality and trying to compete with China.

I have Sears catalogs from the 1890s through the 1970s, with a catalog for every decade. It's amazing to look at the musical instrument offerings, especially in the earlier catalogs. Most of the stuff Sears sold in the brass lines were Czech stencils. Most of them were crap. When a Dupont or other Sears brand vintage horn shows up on eBay, the prices are low, because it's unlikely that those instruments are worth restoring. They weren't much good when they were new, either.

In the meantime, the makers of genuine professional quality instruments are getting record prices for them. Quality is worth the money, in most cases. Not always, but mostly. But people still need cheap student horns. It's good that some of the production in China is OK for those uses. We've always had cheap imported instruments on the market. Some things never change.

[CA Transplant]

This is why I have decided to reevaluate my stance on these horns. I have been unfair. I was correct in everything I was saying, but not realizing that this has always been the case. A cheap horn is a cheap horn. My issue has been that these have been touted here as something they are not. Then I got this tuba and realized that maybe this is not true in all cases...

Well, the early Chinese production was awful, and the instruments weren't even up to student standards. With some help and pushing from American and other companies that wanted to sell cheap stencil horns manufactured in China, the build quality and design quality improved, as it naturally would. Today, you can buy cheap euphs and tubas made in China that will make decent music, as you've discovered. Only time will tell if those instruments will hold up under long use. There's no way to tell. We'll know in a decade or two, and they may continue to improve.

Yamaha has managed to improve its quality dramatically over the years, but their instruments are no longer cheap student horns, necessarily, and their prices are right up there with other high-quality manufacturers. That others are now copying their instruments is a good measure of their success.

Even my 10-year-old or older Blessing euphonium is a copy of a Yamaha 201, but made right here in Elkhart. It has a slighly larger bore, but looks like, sounds like and feels like a Yamaha. When a US maker is copying a Japanese horn, it says something. Everything is upside down.

Who knows? The Chinese may eventually be manufacturing professional quality instruments, but when they do, they will no longer be cheap horns. All of the hand work and care required to make such instruments will mean higher prices. It's all tied together.

[dopey]

Coming back to playing after not since college I searched the internet for nearly every post I could find about Wessex/Mack Brass as my initial reaction to a 'Chinese' horn was negative. I found allot of hostility from some follks, but those people seemed to of exclusively not /actually/ of played the horns they were so against. I found only positive reviews of people who had purchased/played the horn.

Every post I found of someone who once was vocally against(or warned others) that later tried one had nothing but positive things to say.

I'm very happy with the Wessex I bought. I am not convinced a 3+1 setup is for me and may later switch to 4v front action, but as for the horn itself. It's great. -- Speaking of, should my thumb go 'under' the tubing by the valve or rest on top the tubing? Other than using a stand I can't figure out which hand should be securing the horn and where. I feel I lack a grip on the horn with it on top, but fear I am limiting movement with it wrapped underneath... Perhaps this gets better with time.

The only *valid* argument I saw against chinese horns was from an investment standpoint. If I had spent 5-7k on a used Eb and took care of it, the chance of losing money on resale is quite low. Compared to buying this horn new I will almost certainly take a loss when/if I sell... But that argument applies to a new horn regarldess of where it's from.

I'm going to my first community wind orchestra tomorrow with it and very anxious to see how it blends with others.

[CA Transplant]

Blessing euphoniums sounded good/played well featured (excellent) European-made valvesets, were sold in nice MTS-made molded cases, and - imo - the bracing was under-engineered for school use.

Yes. But they're no longer being made. From what I can see, Blessing is no longer actually manufacturing instruments in Elkhart. If they survive at all, it will probably be with Chinese stencils. I was very lucky to find mine, and for an amazing price. The comparison, really, would have been with the Yamaha 201 Euphonium, really. Between 2000 and 2005, when my Blessing was made, that was the competition. I don't know what the prices were for the two instruments at the time. I can see the issue with the bracing, but as an adult player, I'm unlikely to break the horn. It sounds good, plays well, and should be fine for me. I'm extraordinarily pleased with it.

Had I not found that horn, though, I'd probably have been looking at the Jinbao stencils. And I probably wouldn't have a euphonium at all, since my budget for this experiment in learning a low brass instrument was very small. The only new instruments in my price range are the euphoniums from India, and they're not even a real choice.

Prior to the Blessing, I owned a Czech horn made in the 1920s. It was OK, but played flat. I got it on eBay for just $75, polished up, oiled the valves and it played just fine, but it's A=435 pitch made it unusable in ensemble playing. It was one of the cheap stencil student horns available in that time period. Oddly, its design is virtually identical with a current student 3-valve euph from Amati, the last surviving Czech maker. Today, that one sells for about $1000 new.

I was very lucky to find the Blessing at a very low price, and I'm quite happy. If it weren't for that, I wouldn't be practicing scales and reading to try to get up to speed. I just can't afford any of the new instruments.

[Phil Dawson]

I started playing the tuba 45-50 years ago. At that time and being in high school I had thought that a MIraphone 186 was what I wanted. Well that was a bit more than I (my parents) could afford so I wound up going to see Walter Sear in NYC (another story) and purchased a Sear stencil of what was basically a 186 by Cerveny I think. After a few years I switched to CC and bough (me this time) a Sonora stencil of a B&S I believe. Both of these horns were rotary valved horns and I had quite a bit of trouble with the valves so I sold the Sonora and bought a brand new Conn 3J in silver. That horn has served me well for many years, I sill own it and it works very well fro smaller groups although it is a bit small for full concert bands and orchestras. I then bought one of the 6 prototype MIraphone 1290s. This I believe was one of Miraphone's first runs a an American type piston valve large CC. I have since also bought a Besson 983 Pat Sheridan model (a design Pat was very involved with) made in England. A couple of years ago I played a Miraphone 1292 at Tuba Christmas and fell in love with it. I was able to sell my 1290 (also through Tuba Christmas) and wound up buying a show demo Miraphone 1293 with the help of Roger Lewis who is the US Miraphone rep. Roger and the factory were a great deal of help in getting everything right with the horn. Dan Oberloh also spent quite a bit of time tweaking it. The 1293 plays quite a bit better than he 1290 in many respects as Miraphone has really worked hard to make improvements from the 1290 through the 1295, 1291, 1292, to the 1293. Where is this all going? The 1293 represents a lot of R&D on Miraphone's part. They have to make that back to stay in business and more importantly bring more new and hopefully improved models to the tuba playing community. The Chinese make colones. The copy other people's product. Sometimes they do a good job sometimes they don't. There product is definitely less expensive to buy. There is a catch though. If we as a tuba playing community support the cloners to the demise of the factories that are doing the R&D we won't have any new and improved horns to play. So there is nothing wrong with buying a clone (if that is all you can afford) as long as you are willing to contribute to the demise of the factories who did all of the R&D to make your new clone possible. My best to all for a great new year. Phil

[Phil Dawson]

First let me state that I do not question the right of anyone to buy anything they wish (assuming legality) at what ever price they are willing to pay. I also believe that any person or company has the right to sell their product for any price they wish. I attended ITEC in Bloomington this last spring and I was amazed at all of the fine tubas and euphoniums for sale from many great manufacturers. Of course since they are all tubas there are certain to some similarities between instruments but there were many different approaches to solving the same problems.There are also restorers and custom makers who were not present so there is a fantastic variety available to us as players. I don't like to see the cloners in any way threatening what is working so well now. But as I stated above I do not challenge their right to do so. I can only "vote" by choosing what I buy and urge others to do the same. Phil

[MartyNeilan]

Prior to the Blessing, I owned a Czech horn made in the 1920s. It was OK, but played flat. I got it on eBay for just $75, polished up, oiled the valves and it played just fine, but it's A=435 pitch made it unusable in ensemble playing. It was one of the cheap stencil student horns available in that time period. Oddly, its design is virtually identical with a current student 3-valve euph from Amati, the last surviving Czech maker. Today, that one sells for about $1000 new.

A 435 pitch horn is easily corrected by most repairmen (or a few minutes with a fine toothed hacksaw...)

[imperialbari]

Around 1980 I went to a shop here in Denmark and talked to the repairman while he worked on a Parrot tenor saxophone.

He wanted to play it to test his adjustments of pads and keywork. He wondered why it made absolutely no difference, when he activated the upper octave key.

The octave hole was completely blocked by solder a bit down.

Klaus

[UDELBR]

Around 1980...

Says it all.

[imperialbari]

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-messig

[iiipopes]

Chinese (who make tubas) are brutal to their people, but never bombed US soil.
Japanese (who make tubas) bombed US-controlled soil, Americans buy bunches of their tubas, and pay up to $40K for them.
Americans (who make tubas) bombed Mississippi soil, but Mississippians buy King tubas.
Germans (who make tubas) never bombed American soil, but (like Iraq vs."Islamic terrorists hiding out in Pakistan") they were easier to attack than Japan.

The world is a crazy and volatile place.

Playing the tuba is fun.

Money is expensive.

And Russians (who make tubas) and Americans almost bombed each other once upon a time, and play each other's tubas.

[Three Valves]

For years, the King 1140 student tuba has been copied (DEG [R.O.C.], Amati [Czech], and Blessing USA...then [finally] Chinese), but no one seemed to notice or care.

I noticed, and bought one!!

http://www.wessex-tubas.com/junior-bb-tuba/" target="_blank"

(It's modified slightly from pic they still have on the website)

[MackBrass]

Good luck, Wade!

(Can you all persuade Mack Brass to get a nicer looking logo? )

Like

i have been thinking about changing the style of the logo and will probably do it on our 5th year anniversary which is coming up since starting the company. I choose the current logo more because that is my style, no nonsense and very basic and to the point. This is how i operate our business and how i have been my whole life. I do like the suggestion and if someone wants to send me some ideas i will gladly consider them and give full credit.


This is the first time reading this thread. One thing i can say is we started Mack Brass because i felt i could pick the very best models coming out of China and represent them in a different way. Most dealers that know nothing about music or instruments sell anything to make a buck. My approach is to only sell models that can be played on the pro level in a pro environment. Being a musician has helped me in making good choices on model selection and this is why i dont have a huge selection. As long as there are **** dealers selling anything they can make a buck on, then companies in China will continue to manufacture them. This is the part that will keep a dark cloud looming because if you were sold something by a dealer that doesn't care or know what they are doing they will continue to sell to those willing to buy without the proper guidance.

Our business model is simple, only sell what i would play myself. I screen all potential customers before i sell anything to them to ensure that they are getting what they need. Doing this we are approaching the 3000 sold instrument mark and have only had 8 returns in over 4 years.

People still talk about resale and how they will hold up over time. I can tell you that we have sold to well over 250 schools and even though we stock parts for every instrument we carry, the only thing we have had to replace is a few lost screws, 2 broken thumb rings and a couple of valve caps, one was lost and there was a kid who broke a trumpet valve guide. As to resale? My opinion is this, i think the resale value holds up more than other brands. Yes there are those who sell very low but i think its due to lack of information. If you continue to read that resale will be bad then my bet is that those who have sold for a low amount was just thinking that's all its worth. You have to just look at the for sale section, you dont see them very much because those who are buying them are keeping them. Now, i am only talking about the models i carry and the models carried by other reputable dealers as those guys dont carry the garbage designs. The garbage designs will have very little resale value in comparison to the best models.

If you have not played one then give it a shot. Most people dont know this but i do own a 6450 but i prefer the wisemann 900. I got the 6450 because it was the only 6/4 i have ever played that has a low register. I did have a 2145 but i prefer the 410. This is not because i sell them, its because i think they sound great, play incredibly well in tune and are made very well. As i have gotten older, i dont have the time or patience to practice so to me intonation is number 1, if its not in tune then i wont waste my time on the horn or my money not matter who makes it.

Are the best models made in China perfect? No. Are they improving? Yes. The improvements come by dealers who know what they are doing by making suggestions as the manufacturers are very open to making their instruments better. If i get feedback on a model and agree it will be better for all, then the feedback goes to the manufacturer. Making better cases, cutting slide lengths, leadpipe height, buffing, inner tube lengths metal composition, and spit valves are just a few.

I say this on my website, the wisemann 900 will be the first model made in china to win a major audition in the hands of the right player. Already i had a customer take runner up for a major symphony audition on our new c trumpet, its only a matter of time.

Sorry for being so long winded as i now look forward to now reading Wade's long term review and sorry for any mis spellings as typing on a phone sucks.

[Tubahokk]

I am just a poor sap that couldn't afford anything else.

[Three Valves]

I am just a poor sap that couldn't afford anything else.

We lucked out, didn't we??

I usually avoid the re-sale issue by buying carefully and keeping things a long time.

Like my cars.