Playing BBb tuba in at Treble Clef World!

[Tom Eshelman]

One of the better moves I made as an amateur tubist was to take up the soprano recorder long ago. Being able to read the treble clef has come in handy as a tubist with reading from fake books, hymnals, treble clef solo literature, piano right hand etc. Better yet - learn piano before tuba (I didn't, but my kids did).

[roweenie]

I would agree that it would be ultimately beneficial, and not all that difficult to learn B flat treble clef transposition. It opens up a whole world of literature that may have been previously not available to you. I believe the reward will far exceed the effort.

I originally started on cornet as a boy of 9 (fortunately for the rest of the world, not for long, thanks to an alert and savvy music teacher). Lucky for me, I retained the fingerings in my memory, even though I was switched promptly to bass clef E flat tuba. As a music student, and later professional player, these tools made me more "saleable", and therefore helped me quite a bit in my (former) free-lance career.

Actually, as a BB flat player, you have a decided advantage over other tuba players whose proficiency lies on horns of other keys. Why not embrace it?

Any elementary cornet/trumpet book will teach you everything to know.

[iiipopes]

One of the better moves I made as an amateur tubist was to take up the soprano recorder long ago. Being able to read the treble clef has come in handy as a tubist with reading from fake books, hymnals, treble clef solo literature, piano right hand etc. Better yet - learn piano before tuba (I didn't, but my kids did).

Indeed. When I switched from trumpet to souzy to march as a freshman in high school, my six years of piano lessons learning bass clef, and rudimentary music theory to learn scale tones in different keys helped more than anything else. With that foundation, it was an easy matter to assign fingers to "new" notes.

[Mark]

Better than buying a trumpet book, buy Fink's Introducing the Tenor Clef for trombone. It assumes you are starting from bass clef, teaches you tenor clef and then Bb treble clef. Once you have that book down, you can try some trumpet books.

[oedipoes]

I have the exact opposite problem:
I can play BBb tuba in transposed treble clef (brassband notation) and transposed bass clef (which is an octave - 1 whole tone above concert notation) easily, that's what I learned in music school.
Playing BBb tuba while reading concert (C) notation is more challenging for me... but practice makes it work.

I play now BBb tuba reading brassband notation treble clef, transposed bass clef and concert notation, and I play Eb tuba reading brassband notation treble clef for Eb and concert notation.
It's just all a matter of practice...keeps your brains fit I guess.

Brassband treble clef for BBb tuba has the advantage that a bigger part of the music (bigger part of the cash register?) is actually in the staff, in stead of way below like in concert notation.

[Untersatz]

Better than buying a trumpet book, buy Fink's Introducing the Tenor Clef for trombone. It assumes you are starting from bass clef, teaches you tenor clef and then Bb treble clef. Once you have that book down, you can try some trumpet books.

If we wanted to be trumpet players............

[eupher61]

Or, if you want to be a better musician...

[Dan Schultz]

All right! All right! All right!

I started playing piano when I was five years old. I started playing Eb tuba when I was eight years old.... back in the day when it was prudent to start a kid on Eb because of the ease of making a tuba player out of a trumpet player. That was back in 1952.

I still play Eb and BBb tuba and have no problem at all with reading treble clef OR bass clef although I prefer bass clef parts because I live in the 'bass clef World' 95% of the time. This has absolutely nothing to do with being a 'better musician'. At nearly seventy years old I'm simply not going to get any better.

In this digital age... it REALLY pisses me off that publishers refuse to make a couple of mouse clicks to create any part that might be needed to bring the World of Music closer together.

[imperialbari]

Any transposition, except the ones like from E to Eb where the notes stay on the same place in the staff, require the publisher to do a new graphical revision of the part. Time consuming and too costly if the market is small.

Some Dutch publishers sell sets encompassing just about any transposition known outside of China. Costly, bulky, and a disaster, if the band librarian is not well educated.

Klaus

[roweenie]

In this digital age... it REALLY pisses me off that publishers refuse to make a couple of mouse clicks to create any part that might be needed to bring the World of Music closer together.

+1

[imperialbari]

Sorry that it is necessary to restate that transposing parts involves much more than a couple of mouse clicks, if parts shall be readable.

I started using an engraving application 24 years ago because I could no longer write music by hand. Since then I have fought to improve the graphical quality of my engraving. So in that respect I am happy about the advent of affordable engraving applications.

But exactly the cheapness of these applications has flooded the music stands and the internet with garbage that is not really readable, because far too many application owners do not make any efforts to overcome the shortcomings of their given application.

Klaus

[imperialbari]

……..+++++++++++……. to Wade! Also to bloke for his approach, which works for him.

But this is a discussion hard to win by those in the know here in an open forum like TN. Imagine the uproar, if we dared linking to just one sample of the junk available on the web.

Klaus

[roweenie]

I've used Sibelius, and believe me, I know editing a part is much more complicated than a few mouse clicks, especially when it comes to horizontal spacing of slurs, and other markings, other than the notes themselves. I don't mean to make light of the challenges involved in editing, for sure.

However, if you intend to sell your product in a country where there are people who have a different music reading tradition, you should try to accommodate them. (Actually, in the 30+ years I've been playing brass band, this has improved quite a bit).

Let me come at this from a different perspective.

As a bass section leader in a brass band, I can tell you there are few things that are more disruptive to a rehearsal then having a tuba player come in to his first rehearsal, sit down in front of a part, and say, "I can't read this, it's in treble clef!" So what happens next? I hand him my E flat part, give him a quick lesson on how to read it, and then for the remainder of the rehearsal, I struggle (yes, struggle, because I don't transpose, I read the parts in the same fashion that the "real" brass band players do) with reading a B flat treble clef part on an E flat tuba, a large portion of it lying in my pedal register, to add insult to injury.

(And please don't tell me "he shouldn't be there because he can't read the parts" - I'm not the director, and therefore I don't select the players. Yes, I agree - I'm just left with the damage control.)

I have suffered through more than my share of wasted rehearsal time due to illegible parts, and I am in total agreement on that point. However, in some cases, a poorly edited part would be a blessing, rather than have no part at all.

[imperialbari]

You want reputable edition houses putting their reputations at risk?

Not likely to happen.

Or you want these houses issuing horn parts in F along with those in Eb? Plus the whole low brass section parts in bass clef along with the standard treble clef parts.

Please calculate the increased prices of your music acquisitions. And then ask your band treasurer whether he agrees.

Klaus

[roweenie]

Klaus,

Seriously, how much more would it cost to add TWO parts (E flat and B flat bass )?

In my 30+ years, I've NEVER seen a horn player (already familiar with transposition) or a trombone player (reading the part as though it's tenor clef) get tripped up on traditional brass band parts.

My argument is strictly pragmatic - get it done well, and as easily as possible.

If it's a choice between parts that can be read, as opposed to parts that can't be read, I think the extra (?) cost is money well spent, don't you? Also, shouldn't the publisher want to accommodate as many different customers as possible, making for additional sales?

If your argument is that you believe American tuba players should conform to a European concept of music notation, just come out and say it.

[imperialbari]

That is what I suggested somebody phoning me in 1996 wanting me to rewrite parts for a band foreign to me. Something I don't do, unless this process brings the music into a new context.

Klaus

[Dan Schultz]

Sorry that it is necessary to restate that transposing parts involves much more than a couple of mouse clicks....

Sorry, Klaus. But.... you are dead wrong on this one. There is no such thing as 'engraving' any more. I use Finale and can create any part known to man with a couple of mouse clicks once the part is entered by any one of several means including scanning. Yes... scanning is not perfect but DOES work to the degree that it only takes a few minutes to correct minor mistakes.

[PMeuph]

Not relevant, but every time we discuss engraving I go back to watch that video and admire the work being done.

_____

I know publishers don't generally do parts in other keys, but I know for a fact that composers who self publish are often quite willing to transpose the part if requested. Brass band composer Pete Meechan is one of those guys, he onc generously re tweaked parts from one of his pieces to be played by brass band and junior high wind band...

As for the scanning part, if the part was typed with sibelius or finale, it's pretty much painless.

[roughrider]

Thank you for all of the replies to this. I am going to learn how to do this the old fashioned way as I have time before we will be playing any gigs. Thanks again!

[Untersatz]

so you want the whole low brass section parts in bass clef along with the standard treble clef parts?

Hmm.......interesting perspective. Here in the U.S. the standard low brass music IS written in bass clef & also in concert pitch (with the exception of TC euphonium). We also don't learn to play Eb tubas in grade school or learn trumpet fingerings or transposing treble clef music, because we play Bb non-transposing instruments. I myself started on trombone in 5th grade & in 7th grade switched to tuba. So for nearly 40 years now, I have lived in the Bb non-transposing, bass clef world for the instruments that I play. To say that the treble clef, transposing, trumpet fingering world on a tuba is foreign to me, would be an HUGE understatement!