6/4 Tuba Questions

[Z-Tuba Dude]

I really don't get the whole "rotor vs. piston" thing.

You just push you fingers down & blow, no?

[TubaZac2012]

I don't know man, rotary valves just don't feel as sound, as strong, as reliable. They're fine, just not my taste.

[bort]

And that's why they both exist.

[TubaZac2012]

Aha! There it is.

[Z-Tuba Dude]

And that's why they both exist.

That is an interesting question! (in a chicken and egg sorta way...) Did the choice of rotary & piston valves come into existence because of the need for comfort for the different player's playing styles, or did they just evolve as a result of two different cultural approaches to the same mechanical need?

Discuss....

[bort]

And that's why they both exist.

That is an interesting question! (in a chicken and egg sorta way...) Did the choice of rotary & piston valves come into existence because of the need for comfort for the different player's playing styles, or did they just evolve as a result of two different cultural approaches to the same mechanical need?

Discuss....

I think it's certainly the latter of the two. I didn't literally mean that it's *why* they both exist. I guess I just meant "lucky for you, they both exist!"

Pistons... pfft!

[TubaZac2012]

We went from 6/4 tubas to valve sets, the magical land of tubenet.

[PaulMaybery]

Pistons vs Rotary on the same model. Well, we may be missing something here, but perhaps we all know it. Usually in a piston tuba the lead pipe is somewhat shorter than on the rotary. At least in the "good old days" the lead pipe on the rotary would wrap up to the top bow and then down to the first valve. Where as on the piston it went directly into the 1st valve by the shortest route. HOWEVER, tubas with the tuning in the lead pipe had a much longer route to the 1st valve. (closer to that on the rotary tuba) Some of the Hirsbrunners have that set up. (Some players I know claim that the longer pipe adds a certain sweetness or smoothness the sound and response) It certainly affects the nodes and their relationship to the turbulance/disturbance/geometric distortion created by the valves.

With a longer lead pipe, it stands to reason that the valve block is further down the tube at often (but not necessarily) at a wider section of the bugle. Not quite sure what that all means, but it is a variable in the equation of how for instance a Rotary Neptune plays compared to the piston version. Does a wider valve bore make valve changes smoother or more clumbsy? For some, I suppose as with any difference, one will have a preference.

On a blind test in a huge hall, would it the valve style be noticable, or would things like the mouthpiece or a certain players approach to timbre be more of a factor?

One little quirk on rotarys is the direction in which the valve turns, that is either with or against the airstream. On some older tubas valves 1 & 2 turn in opposite direction from 3 & 4. This can result in a small pop or blip which may feel annoying in sensitive situations. A good tech can reverse them and also vent the valves to avoid that problem.

Personally, I like the feel of pistons. For me they feel very positive when I mash them. Particularly now with the Stainless Steel models, they seem to stay functional much longer than the older plated pistons. Certain things have improved.

Historically when the valves were being developed in the early and mid-19th century, there were 4 fairly well used concepts. The Berlin Pumpen, which tended to have not the greatest compression, the Double Vienna Valve, which is still today used on Horns in the Vienna orchestras, the rotary or Radmaskine and the Perinet or Piston. The last two are still in the running. String action rotarys are historically an American design from the mid-19th century American makers.
My old 1940 King CC had string action rotary valves. Smooth and quiet, they lose the need for 2 pivot joints, but a little spongy when it came to fingering them aggressively. I do not miss them or the charm of their visual eccentricity. I always carried a small roll of 50 pound squid line.

In my book, a valve should be fast, positive feel, quiet, great compression, and a fairly light action. For jazz it is advantages to have pistons for the half valve effect. That may or may not be an issue for tubaists, unless jazz soloing is your gig.

So there are my two cents. To those of you who have more access to rotarys and pistons of the same model, such as on the Neptunes, Fafners, Seigfrieds, Thor vs Tuono, etc, I would love to learn more (comparatively) of the details/specs of the differences that I mentioned above.

Paul "who at the moment is stuck for something 'witty' to add" Maybery

[Rick Denney]

It's an honor to have you comment on one of my threads, your Holton is one of the original CCs, right?

No, mine is a Bb. Holtons are not consistent, of course. Some I've played had terrible issues. But the good ones are legendary for a reason. Will the BMB attain similarly legendary status? Given that it depends on part on how rarely the really good ones appear, Mr. Barth probably hopes not.

Rick "just an amateur who knows what he likes" Denney