Does this exist? (Non-Yorky piston tubas)

[toobagrowl]

Some Hirsbrunner models sound more German rotary than American York. I'm thinking of the HB-21 and HB-2p, specifically.

Huh? The HB-21 and HB-2p were based off the York design; in a 4/4 package.
Though Swiss-made, those tubas look, play and sound "Yorkish" to me.

But the piston M-W tubas still have a more "German" sound to my ears. Piston B&S tubas have a mixed German & American (Yorkish) sound, imo.

[Michael Bush]

Huh? The HB-21 and HB-2p were based off the York design; in a 4/4 package.
Though Swiss-made, those tubas look, play and sound "Yorkish" to me.

But the piston M-W tubas still have a more "German" sound to my ears.

This.^

[michael_glenn]

Some Hirsbrunner models sound more German rotary than American York. I'm thinking of the HB-21 and HB-2p, specifically.

Huh? The HB-21 and HB-2p were based off the York design; in a 4/4 package.
Though Swiss-made, those tubas look, play and sound "Yorkish" to me.

But the piston M-W tubas still have a more "German" sound to my ears. Piston B&S tubas have a mixed German & American (Yorkish) sound, imo.

My HB-2 doesn't sound Yorky to me... But it also doesn't sound exactly like a German rotor. It's just kinda something special... I love it.

[Michael Bush]

My HB-2 doesn't sound Yorky to me... But it also doesn't sound exactly like a German rotor. It's just kinda something special... I love it.

Never having played either a rotary HB2 or a 4/4 York, my ability to compare is limited. But I've played 3 HB2Ps (obviously including the one I now own) and one of the four-valve version, whatever it is called, and none of them (with me playing them) have sounded like a 186, for example. But they also don't sound much like a 6/4 York. I can only speculate, but it wouldn't surprise me if a very good 4/4 York or "Yorky" tuba turned out to sound a great deal like a 2P. Until better informed that's what I think.

[Tom]

Ok, so we're going off on a Hirsbrunner sound tangent for a moment...

With the exception of the Yorkbrunner and the HB-20 (which is essentially a 4/4 Yorkbrunner), my personal opinion is still that Hirsbrunners lean *more* towards German rotary territory than they do York territory regardless of their look and design basis. But....

That said, I would also say there is a "Hirsbrunner Sound" that is distinctly different than what one might call strictly the German rotary sound or, for that matter, the York sound. Perhaps it warrants its' own descriptor; maybe we should call it the Swiss sound (or just the Hirsbrunner sound)? It is a bit like the difference between a Miraphone 186 and an Alexander 163: both German, both rotary, both "look" the same, distinctly different sounds.

[michael_glenn]

Ok, so we're going off on a Hirsbrunner sound tangent for a moment...

With the exception of the Yorkbrunner and the HB-20 (which is essentially a 4/4 Yorkbrunner), my personal opinion is still that Hirsbrunners lean *more* towards German rotary territory than they do York territory regardless of their look and design basis. But....

That said, I would also say there is a "Hirsbrunner Sound" that is distinctly different than what one might call strictly the German rotary sound or, for that matter, the York sound. Perhaps it warrants its' own descriptor; maybe we should call it the Swiss sound (or just the Hirsbrunner sound)? It is a bit like the difference between a Miraphone 186 and an Alexander 163: both German, both rotary, both "look" the same, distinctly different sounds.

+1
I would agree that it leans more towards the German sound. However, it's something different enough that I would classify it's sound all on its own--- Hirsbrunner. I absolutely adore it. Mine has such a warm, velvety, and colorful sound that puts to shame all other tubas I've tried. (I've tried a lot.)

[bort]

Thanks guys. It's impossible to use words to describe a sound in a way that is understandable to everyone...

For me, there's kind of a continuum of sounds, with York on one side and German rotary on the other side. It's all the stuff in the middle that's hazy, and frankly, depends on the player a bit too. I think I wrote off piston-valve tubas because of associations with that big broad sound... so if there's something with a narrower and more focused sound, that's good news to me.

[tubacorbin]

If I may...

I can think of a non-yorky, non-pistony tuba that is smaller than your Willson...The Miraphone 188

[Mark Horne]

Bort,

Unless you're dead-set on getting pistons, it sounds to me that the horn you want is an Alexander 163. It defines the German rotary sound (more so than Miraphone in my opinion); it plays as large as you want; and fits in a 186 gig bag. I think it takes some time to learn to play it the way it wants to be played (nothing to do with intonation, which is very good overall), but it's very rewarding when you get there.

[Alex C]

Does this exist?

-- CC tuba
-- 4 piston, 1 rotor
-- 4/4 to 5/4 (not huge, but a "do it all" tuba)
-- "German rotary sound" instead of "American "York" sound"
-- Not Chinese

There are a ton of piston CC tubas out there, so I'm curious which, if any, sound the least "Yorky." Any thoughts?

The Miraphone 1291 doesn't sound the least bit like a York. It's not a 188 sound but it IS German. My definition of a German sound is: ;ots of fundamental, good mid-range overtones, not many high overtones.

My personal opinion, limited though, is that the 1292 and 93 are brighter and not something you would like as much.

The Meinl's are even darker and nothing they've ever built sounds like a York. I don't care for the way they played but that's personal, you may love them.

I don't think the Conn 56-J is York-like in the least. The smaller bell horns are more American sounding. All of this is subjective.

[toobagrowl]

Everyone hears things differently. And I think that's why we all have our own preferences, and thus why there are so many different tubas

Though somewhat limited experience with Hirsbrunners, I have played the HB-21, HB-2p and maybe 3 or 4 different Yorkbrunners. I have heard other players on those tubas, too. Honestly, the HB-21 seemed most "Yorkish" out of the HBs. The Yorkbrunner/HB-50 (to me) actually sounds/plays like a mix of Kaisertuba AND big York. It's darker/denser and slightly more "direct" in sound than most 6/4 York-style tubas, while still having a sweetness to it. Not quite as "fluffy" as many 6/4 York-style tubas, and has a great low register.

As for the rotary HB-2; I've only heard a couple different players on them, but to me, it sounds a little different from the piston HB-2p or HB-21. It's like the difference between the rotary PT-6 and piston PT-6p. Maybe not a HUGE difference, but the difference is still there between the rotary and piston models


tooba (who still prefers a good Yorkbrunner over most 6/4 tubas) growl

[Donn]

I don't think the Conn 56-J is York-like in the least. The smaller bell horns are more American sounding.

By smaller bell, you mean the 52J 18" and 54J 19" bells are more American, 56J 20" bell not so much? That's interesting.

[bort]

LOTS of good thoughts here...

Corbin -- yeah yeah... you're probably right about the 188. I owned a great one, sold it, and then could have bought another great one last summer, and didn't. I only sold mine because I thought it was more work than I wanted to make it sound big. Little did I know, I preferred that sound, even if it took a lot more work. Best ergonomics of any horn I've owned.

Mark -- I'd love to be an Alex 163 player, but I'm concerned that I'd have the same difficulty I had with my Rudy Meinl; it's a tuba that demands to be played, and rewards you for playing it. Do you find (or not find) that a little time away from the Alex makes a difference in getting back at it? I've heard they are a little unforgiving for irregular playing.

Alex -- I owned a 1291 for almost 5 years. In fact, that was the first "big" tuba purchase I made... and the first "big" sale that set me off in this tuba swapping spiral. I liked it a lot, and it served me well. It played easily and sounded good on recordings. I kind of wrote it off after trying (and owning) some other things. Maybe I should give it another listen. It was a comfortable tuba to hold and play, and easy to pick up after a few days off -- that might come in handy right now. Plus, I can't hide that I'm a Miraphone guy. Thanks for the reminder.

[bort]

Thanks Joe... you make me feel a little less crazy about it.

My problem (and criteria for "magic") is finding something that is not physically huge, sounds big (when necessary), and is easy to play. Seems like it's easy to find 2 out of 3, and it's a matter of which of those 3 gets compromised.

[Mark Horne]

Bort,

I don't believe that the 163 requires much special attention, or becomes hard to play if you don't practice all the time. It's a fairly large bore and the resonance of the slots will change in a non-linear fashion as you move up and down in range and volume. I have found that it feels very similar to the rotary Neptune in this regard - some notes will come out a lot easier than others, and you have to develop a bit of a feel to keep the sound even. Once you develop the feel, the results can be awesome! If the 188 is like a 186 on steroids, then the 163 is like a 188 on steroids - even more so. The Miraphones may slot more securely, but it's a lot more work to get power out of the low range.

[bort]

Thanks Mark. Low range power was always the "issue" with the 188 -- I liked the sound, it just took a lot of work. I'll consider the 163. I've spent much of my tuba life playing and negotiating rotary horns, so if it's just that sort of thing, then I can handle it. Just a matter of how needy the tuba is -- I don't get much time on the horn right now, so I need those couple of hours to be easy and not catching back up to where I was. No doubt though, the Alex is one hell of a sound!

[k001k47]

I was looking at the tuba exchange website and remembered this thread. Dunno if it was mentioned before, but St Petersburg released some piston horns in the recent past. I think they just slapped some piston valves on their rotary horn bugles, but I may be wrong. May be worth giving a toot

I played one at TMEA this passed year, but can't remember much about it. One of my studio colleagues praised it.

[k001k47]

Kalison DS or KAB77
MW Thor, 2145 or 3450
Miraphone 1291, 1292 or 1293
Jupiter 584, 1284 (XO)
Rudy Meinl 4345
St Petersburg 210
Yamaha 822

Of the choices above, if I had the money, the Thor would be my 1st choice. Followed, closely, by the Kalison or one the Miraphones. I also think the Yamaha is underated... that 822 with a HB bell that popped up a few years ago looked particularly intriguing.

Yep, it was mentioned

[LowBrassNYC]

The new MW 3225 Ursus seems to be exactly what you're looking for. If I had the bread I would buy it in a heartbeat. It's really is a game changer. The NYC Buffet showroom just cleared out the 2 they had in stock selling for just north of $13k.

[bort]

Cool, thanks Ryan... I'll have to drop by the showroom next time I'm in the city. It figures that this happens like 2 months AFTER I move away...