"downsizing" contrabass tubas...

[PaulMaybery]

The majority of time I have brought a smaller tuba in recent years (college/community orchestra, large church orchestra) the bigger tuba was always requested.

I just don't recall any music director or choir director or community band director (hired for a rehearsal-concert / regulars-out-of-town situations) or small combo leaders or brass quintet colleagues EVER suggesting to me that I bring or should-have-brought any-tuba-in-particular.

It's a rare situation when a conductor really knows how to "talk tuba" and understand fully the sublties of the size of the horn. The obvious is that many are scared when they see a BAT. But in reality, they may have been turned off by a blatty sounding smaller horn that simply had too much edge. They then transfer this sound image to the BAT and believe it will be just as bad only bigger and more offensive.

The BAT will do whatever you want. I find that the softs are not just "soft" but actually rather mysterious and compelling with a depth of character. Part of that is the harmonic complexity of the larger taper.

I think I have seduced our orchestra conductor in believing in the BAT. I've made an extra effort to present the soft playing with an obvious air of elegance and color. It's pretty normal to expect that the louds will be huge, when necessary.
When he cues the bones and tuba these days, I see him take a big breath and puff up like an ol' bull frog. I think he likes what he hears. It's my job to see that he does.

My take is, if you want to keep using it in an ensemble, then playing it with ultimate musicianship will likely win you some points. It is only a tool in the hands of a craftsman musician, and it must be mastered.

[Three Valves]

I never ask a question that I won't like the answer to!!

[bububassboner]

...or (unlike me) solicited opinions of baton-wavers who (often like medical doctors) view themselves as experts-in-everything.
"

Oh god no. First rule is to never talk to the director unless they talk to you. I agree with your view that they tend to see themselves as experts in everything and engaging them tends to be an unenjoyable time.

With the German Orchestra I had both a B&S Symphonie and my 6/4 CC. It was my first time playing with a German group like this so I was a little worried about using the big horn. One of the tunes had some big low stuff so switched to the CC and during the next break the conductor asked me to use the big tuba for the entire concert. I was a little shocked at that but the trombones loved it and I still got paid the same.

[hbcrandy]

Looking at the orchestral tuba players that were in the major orchestras during the early and middle part of his career, the largest thing seen in most cases (probably excluding exceptions here and there such as Philadelphia using a sousaphone for Fantasia by Disney) is probably an Alex 163.

I just want to clear up a minor point the above quote. I asked Mr. Torchinsky about the Sousaphone seen in the on-screen orchestra in Fantasia. He told me that the orchestra seen on-screen in the movie was not the Philadelphia Orchestra, but, a bunch of Hollywood studio actors for the film. The entire sound track heard was the Philadelphia Orchestra. The Sousaphone was included for visual appeal. At one point In the film, the silhouette of a tuba player is seen taking his seat. He is a slender man with what appears to be a rotary valved tuba. Mr. Torchinsky said that is DEFINITELY not the silhouette of Phillip Donatelli who was the tuba player at that time.

[Three Valves]

I wondered if Mel Torme told the Tuba player backing up Judy Garland to bring the Big Honkin' Tuba w/recording bell...

[Donn]

When I brought my new-to-me BAT into rehearsal ... if there are bands where the director asks players to bring specific instruments, this isn't one of them, but neither is it one where the director comments on how anyone's horn sounds, and I did get that comment. Which could sure be construed as encouragement. You know, "bring whatever tuba you want, it's totally up to you as it must be, but I'm just saying, I wet myself with ecstasy when you played that BAT."

[MartyNeilan]

The majority of time I have brought a smaller tuba in recent years (college/community orchestra, large church orchestra) the bigger tuba was always requested. The BAT/BART project I have worked on for years is NOT a foghorn, but has a rich and clear but all-encompassing sound. It is a foundation for the ensemble that a much smaller horn does not have in girth of sound.

Wow, I didn't think that would stir the pot so much.
The sound of the big tuba was appreciated. A much smaller horn didn't bring the same depth. Other players and the guy waving the stick (who in one case was a trombone/euph professional) much preferred the sound of the big horn. That's all.
Doesn't matter, I don't play with either group anymore and recently "semi-retired" from tuba playing due to tinnitus and other hearing issues after gradually backing off the past couple of years.
If I ever get back in the game again, it is good to know that a pocket tuba is now instrument of choice.

[Michael Bush]

it is good to know that a pocket tuba is now instrument of choice.

I brought a pocket tuba to a rehearsal once, not that long ago, when it was the only cc tuba in my possession. (The Nirschl was... somewhere. Maybe in the shop getting the 5th valve slide worked on, the 2J was where it has been for a year, in a shop in another part of the country, and the only full size tuba on hand was a BBb, which I never play anymore.) The band director pretended to think it was amusing. If that situation arises again, I'll just skip.

[Rick Denney]

We keep talking about BATs as if it is a homogeneous concept. It is not. A 36J is quite different from a Holton 345 (not that any two 345's are alike), and both are different from a BMB, a Willson 3050 or 3100, a Siegfried, or whatever. Some play softly very well, and others only with difficulty. Some play reasonably in tune, and others require major effort. Some are highly resonant in the hands and provide wonderful feedback, and others are disconnected and distant from the player. Some are woofy, and others colorful. Some provide color but not loudness, and others provide loudness and darkness with less color. Some are super-efficient, and some suck the air right out of you. All big tubas share some characteristics, but they differ from each other just as much as 4/4 tubas do.

If there is one type that seems like it would beat up the player, it's the type that is disconnected and that provides little feedback. The resonant, high-feedback examples are no harder to play than smaller tubas, and for some effects, they are easier.

But an edgy, pointed sound is not what they do. The question is: When do we as tuba players want an edgy, pointed sound? I can think of some examples, and they make me want to bring my F tuba.

Paul talks about all these skills that are required, and I'm pretty sure I don't have them. But whatever a good big tuba does for a pro it also does for me. The pro just has a much better starting point.

Rick "who rarely plays the 4/4 tubas" Denney

[Michael Bush]

What if the chip has two read streaks on it...??

Are they "weird" too, like the green place? All weird colors on a chip mean the chip is staying in the bowl.

[pjv]

If I understand this correctly, i believe the roots of this conversation have to do with the tuba as an orchestral instrument and how that sound concept is changing.

The 6/4 tuba; a large tuba which lays down an enormous wide sound as a kind of mattress for the rest of the orchestra to lye on. Or jump on. Or sleep on. Whatever.

I think that tuba players themselves are moving towards tubas that have a bit more clarity in the sound and are less ever-present. A tuba that can blend into or underneath the sound of the orchestra as apposed to always being heard no matter what. A tuba whose articulation is heard just a bit better because the sound of that tuba is less massive.
Voila, the 5/4 tuba: the 6/4 tuba thats been doing some training, is a bit fitter and has learned not always to try to dominate the conversation.

[Donn]

If there is one type that seems like it would beat up the player, it's the type that is disconnected and that provides little feedback.

This suggests, does it not, that a forward facing bell puts its player at risk for this reason?

[pjv]

A front bell doesn't disconnect me from my sound anymore or less than an upright bell. I just need to localize my sound in a different place. Because the front bell points forward I often can allow myself to play much softer. Depending on the type of ensemble and/or the type of music most everybody's sound emissions will also be pointing forward, so a front bell can be very advantageous.

[Donn]

I envy your front bell setup. On my old Holton, I'm in an acoustic shadow behind the bell, so more of the volume and detail of the sound is lost at my end than is added at the listener's end, and there's considerable potential to play too loud so I can hear myself. (Unless I turn the bell to the side, where I guess it's slightly better than a normal upright.)

One peculiarity is that the effect varies for different notes. Some notes on this tuba shake the tuba, but a few do not, and with the bell forward, those notes are particularly weak from behind the bell. With the bell turned to the side, or if I face a nearby reflective surface, those notes turn out to sound pretty much like everything else. Apparently I'm playing partly by feel.

[bububassboner]

I think part of the trend to get something a bit smaller has more to do with edge than clarity for a lot of players. (My opinion so take it for what it is worth)

When we listen to some of the greats like Gene or Chris Olka, they can really get some edge and power in the low end. However this skill of having lots of edge on the 6/4 C isn't an easy one to get or maintain. So I think what has happened is that many players got those 6/4 tubas wanting that sound but realized how hard that can be, so they went a bit smaller. I think we can all agree that a Thor can easily achieve this edge. Hell the blokepiece symphony was designed to round out the low end of that horn.

There are some 6/4 tubas that can get that edge easily. The Gronitz and the Nirschl horns come to mind, but for most that is very challenging. I actually owned a 2165 prototype and my Nirschl at the same time. That prototype was so hard to get edge on. If that was my only 6/4 experience I also might have downsized.

I also totally agree with what Rick said about different types of 6/4 tubas. I do find my big horn to be more agile and easier to play than the two PT606 tubas we have at work, but it's also very light and I get a lot of feedback from it. To each their own.

[bisontuba]

So, bloke, has anyone offered to dump their Siegfried and sell it to you yet?

+1...

[Michael Bush]

WWBW is "dumping" one with a little messed up lacquer.

[Jay Bertolet]

I think Rick has it exactly right, though that is just a guess on my part since I haven't played on as many 6/4 tubas as most have. My 6/4 CC plays like every all purpose horn I've ever owned, just better. I can use it in just about anything (within reason) and I suspect that others have a lot more difficulty playing their 6/4s in multiple settings than I do. I read the complaints others have posted about using 6/4 tubas more regularly and I honestly don't have any of those issues with mine. Efficiency is amazing, dynamic range is amazing, and mine has almost no pitch issues at all. My guess is that it's just like anything else in our business. When you match the right horn with the right player, that's when things become a lot easier. As long as folks are willing to pay me to play on my 6/4, I'll keep doing it.

[JCalkin]

The majority of time I have brought a smaller tuba in recent years (college/community orchestra, large church orchestra) the bigger tuba was always requested.

I just don't recall any music director or choir director or community band director (hired for a rehearsal-concert / regulars-out-of-town situations) or small combo leaders or brass quintet colleagues EVER suggesting to me that I bring or should-have-brought any-tuba-in-particular.

I have. I recall doing the Mendelssohn Elijah (orch and choir) a few years back, and the principal bone asked if we could try to "lighten up" a bit through smaller equipment to get a slightly more "French" sound. He played alto, second bone brought a .525" tenor, and bass bone brought a .547" tenor. I brought a smallish F. At break the (choir) director called me over (unsolicited) and asked what we were doing differently. When I told him, he said "no, no... bring the biggest horns you have. I like a huge low brass sound." So away went the F and out came the big CC for the next rehearsal. First low brass chord: big thumbs-up from the director.

[pjv]

Every party needs a pooper