so-called "jazz lessons"

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Donn
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Re: so-called "jazz lessons"

Post by Donn »

tubaphillips wrote:Jazz and reading chord changes is something anyone can learn. Most tuba players struggle with it because it requires strong musicianship skills and theory knowledge.
Theory knowledge -- I don't know how much I don't know, but I think it's a lot. Yet, I'd rather play improvised bass lines than do about anything else. I'm not earning any money at it, but let's suppose I do an adequate job. By the way, I see that as not just playing notes that are consonant with the harmonic structure, but also providing cues to the harmonic movement, so to speak - notes that set up the changes. (It would be interesting to work with another player who's doing that, e.g., trombone, but never been there.) Anyway, supposing I'm managing all right with quite minimal theory, what am I missing?

Well, one missing thing is that I need to know the music before I can play it. I mean, I can puzzle something out from a chart, play the roots anyway, but that isn't how I do it, it's pure black box stuff that goes on somewhere outside of my understanding. Likewise it's a lot easier to play a kind of music I know. I mean, duh, "the blues", but a lot of music is like that.

And from where I'm sitting, it seems to me the "newer" popular music that's used for be bop etc. (only 1/2 century old, as opposed to whole century), might actually be a little harder to learn, in that sense of categorical familiarity. I don't think that's because the popular music as a whole became less predictable, rather it's because be bop improvisers preferred the more unpredictable tunes. Unpredictable means not only that it's harder to know what's coming next, it's also harder to put together a bass line that makes sense of it ... and maybe the theory comes in handy here.
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Re: so-called "jazz lessons"

Post by tubaphillips »

I mean, you need basic theory. If you can play 1 and 5 that's 90% of the job. As a rhythm section player you need to be rock solid on your time. The more theory you know along with better time the better you will be at recovering from your "mistakes" IE making strong cases for your "mistakes". The most important thing you should take away from what I said was go out there and play music. Meet people, work on your networking, get performance practice, learn the tunes people in your community are playing, show people what the tuba can do.

If you honestly think that pop tunes today are harder to learn than be-bop I don't know what to tell you other than you are wrong. Not only that, but you should embrace the pop music. It's the musical language of our era. Also keep in mind that these jazz standards were the pop music of it's day. Don't dismiss the pop music for a second. If you want to be employable as a rhythm section player an easy way to do it is to learn pop music. If I recall correctly Amir Gray saw a huge amount of success following one video of him playing the Whip and Nae Nae. Play to your audience.
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Donn
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Re: so-called "jazz lessons"

Post by Donn »

I mean, from a theoretical perspective I'm not playing 1 and 5, because I am not aware - in those terms - what chord would be indicated on the chart if I was looking at one. Sure, if we stopped and got into it, I could puzzle it out without much difficulty, because non-theoretically I do know what chord it is and what the root, third etc. are, so I can take stock of the situation and likely identify the chord. So I guess I have basic theory, but it's a semantic question whether I'm using it - often I don't even know, consciously, what key signature.

As far as what I honestly think about pop tunes, I guess the best I can do is requote what I said -
Donn wrote:I don't think that's because the popular music as a whole became less predictable, rather it's because be bop improvisers preferred the more unpredictable tunes.
.. again for example
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Re: so-called "jazz lessons"

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Donn wrote:I don't think that's because the popular music as a whole became less predictable, rather it's because be bop improvisers preferred the more unpredictable tunes.
I'm trying to figure out if you are saying that Autumn Leaves is unpredictable? When I see it and play it, I see a series of 2-5-1 progressions. Once you know how to navigate a 2-5-1, life gets easier.

But I would agree that Autumn Leaves is more complex than some 3-chord pop tunes.
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Re: so-called "jazz lessons"

Post by Mudman »

Don't 1-chord praise songs modulate up to the key of Jesus?

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Re: so-called "jazz lessons"

Post by Mudman »

I miss you. Mr. Willson, not so much, but he has made a career of it :)

Haven't played the Frankenyork as much as I would like.

A bit of gasoline would take care of that there kudzu infestation . . .
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Re: so-called "jazz lessons"

Post by Donn »

Mudman wrote:I'm trying to figure out if you are saying that Autumn Leaves is unpredictable? When I see it and play it, I see a series of 2-5-1 progressions. Once you know how to navigate a 2-5-1, life gets easier.
This discussion has sure been odd for me. Did I mention Autumn Leaves? I don't think I did, but anyway, here it is. The first three chords look to me like they might be your 2-5-1 progression, and I see it happens again later. That seems like a pretty small fraction of the tune, but as I'm no music theory giant perhaps I'm missing it all? I personally don't find it super challenging, but it helps that it's a very familiar tune. (Modern popular music, I don't know, 71 years old.) Not all be-bop favorites are the same - didn't guys like to use Indiana? I don't know, not really heavy on be-bop, just saying as a whole the repertoire might give you more opportunities to use your music theory.
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Re: so-called "jazz lessons"

Post by Mudman »

My bad---I saw the letter "A" in your previous post. All the things you are ... more prevalent series of 2-5-1's.

But for full predictability, go full Millenial Whoop:

https://youtu.be/MN23lFKfpck" target="_blank
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Re: so-called "jazz lessons"

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bloke wrote:
58mark wrote:The bass player in the Stan Kenton Band (c. 1972) coached several of us in Memphis (piano and bass players involved in the rhythm sections of various local high school jazz bands) about "improvisation". He kept telling us during that hour that "two notes" were enough - and we (with our juvenile delusional-superiority wisdom...and - well - the guy was talking as if he had just smoked something) laughed about that for a long time. ...but (of course) he was right.

When you hear someone else do something astonishingly simple that sounds really great, instead of wondering, "How did he know to do that?", begin to think, "Heck, I can do that!"
I am very lucky. The Kenton organization had an annual summer clinic at Drury College (now Drury University) in Springfield, Missouri in the '70's. I was too young to go to the clinics, but I did get to attend the last concert in @1975 when I was in junior high school. I benefitted from the older classmen when they handed those lessons learned down to me when I finally got there as an undergraduate, including getting to perform many of the Kenton classic cuts off authorized photocopies of the manuscripts (Minor Booze, Girl Talk, MacArthur Park, etc.)

I agree totally with bloke. You really can't teach how to construct a good jazz bass line. I prefer to think of it as having been given some good fundamentals as to theory in the classroom sense, but then the opportunity to gig in a variety of contexts to get more of what might be called "apprenticeship" education to get out there, have the opportunity to make some mistakes in order to see where the line should go, and then get the understanding worked up over time to provide the appropriate foundation in whatever ensemble I am called to provide, whether it be written charts, chord sheets with hash marks, "Nashville" notation, lead sheets in the "Fake Book" style, or even, "Here's the recording. Listen to it over the lunch hour and be able to gig it this evening."
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Re: so-called "jazz lessons"

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iiipopes wrote:
I agree totally with bloke. You really can't teach how to construct a good jazz bass line. I prefer to think of it as having been given some good fundamentals as to theory in the classroom sense, but then the opportunity to gig in a variety of contexts to get more of what might be called "apprenticeship" education to get out there, have the opportunity to make some mistakes in order to see where the line should go.
^^^ This is how I did it, exactly. ^^^

"Back in the day", I had several other tuba players ask me "how I did it".

It's ALL about FIRST learning about something called voice leading, then, listening to records, and then, going out and doing it (although, in my case, two and three were switched around a little....)

(The first two you can do at home....the third, in this day and age, good luck.)
Last edited by roweenie on Sun Nov 13, 2016 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: so-called "jazz lessons"

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bloke wrote:I believe most people (as if lip trills, circular breathing, double-tonguing, etc.) view this as another on a list of playing "tricks..."
True that.

When I play trad jazz, I "live" the music, just as much as (or maybe even more so than) when I play quintet, band, etc.; this, as opposed to "learning the trick so I can get work playing that old crap".
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Re: so-called "jazz lessons"

Post by Toobist »

Great info on this thread.

I'm in the "sound like crap" stage of my "jazz" playing. It's been like that for a couple years now. I've been lucky to play with some truly gifted (and younger) trad. jazz players. They invite me to busk, play festivals and bar gigs. The music speaks to me as much as (and more than) any of the orchestral gigs I've done over the several years I've been tooting in the back rows of some pretty awesome orchestras. While I appreciate and love my time playing with some of the highest-calibre musicians I've ever met in the "classical" world, I've never experienced the JOY I've felt while playing at those bars or on the street with a crowd hooting and toddlers dancing their little butts off. I've counted more of those "perfect moments" in the last two years playing (poorly) on trad. jazz gigs with these younger hotshots than I did in 30 years playing orchestral music.

Also! If we actually have a rehearsal (a rarity), there's usually beer and often food involved! Most orchestras don't allow that on stage.

Learning turnarounds in all keys and some idiomatic fills and endings were key for me.

The BIGGEST hurtle I find, as a classically trained tubist, is getting the hell off the page and getting the hell outta my head. Those "perfect moments" are invariably times where I'm at home with the tune and the bandmates and I'm off-chart and grooving. Memorizing tunes/progressions was and is something that I've spent almost zero time on in my training and career. I sorely wish I'd done so much more of that.

By outta my head, I mean getting to a point where I TRUST my ears enough to know what's next. Isn't that crazy? Why can't I (and many of us classical musicians) just take my foot off the break and confidently spit those notes outta the horn. Sheesh!
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