Imported crappy horns

[Pippen]

[quote="TubaTinker] I would never advise anyone to buy a $200 1st Act over a repadded Bundy (about the same money). Here's a situation where the imports should be avoided at every cost. Too bad tubas aren't as easy to come by [/quote]

Is there a flute equivalent to this? While searching unsuccessfully for baritones I found myself wishing I had inquired about flutes since that's the direction my daughter will likely be going. I checked around on several flute forums but let's say there was...er...vast disagreement on the subject.

[Chuck(G)]

Is there a flute equivalent to this? While searching unsuccessfully for baritones I found myself wishing I had inquired about flutes since that's the direction my daughter will likely be going. I checked around on several flute forums but let's say there was...er...vast disagreement on the subject.

Yes, there are cheap import flutes with keywork that's all but impossible to work on (soft and breakable).

In the case of student flutes, however, there's really no excuse for not purchasing a good used instrument. After reading want ads, it seems that the streets in some cities must be paved with used Armstrong 104s at prices lower than the cheap imports. Throw a bit of money into an "econo" pad job by a decent service tech and you've got an instrument that will hold up to the rigors of school use and still be salable when your child is through with it.

My wife has a Buffet Crampon that she paid less than $100 for that she loans out from time to time. She reports that, all in all, it's a very good player with a fine tone--and it was perhaps 30 years old when she purchased it.

[Kevin Hendrick]

... Then again it IS a tuba, so what difference could it make?

Depends on your point of view, doesn't it?

[poomshanka]

Buy a new car, drive it off the dealer's lot and what's it lose - something like 20% of it's resale value? I wonder how much of this mentality permeates the thinking of a parent looking to purchase a "student quality" instrument for their budding Arnold Jacobs/Brian Bowman/Joe Alessi/Bud Herseth/etc.

Yeah, kids can change their minds as often as the wind changes direction. Playing any given instrument may be the flavor this month, but maybe next month it will be soccer or a pony.

Personally, I've never sold an instrument for less than I've paid for it. Good quality equipment, well maintained, holds its resale value. What I wonder about is resale value on these "Walmart imports".

I understand the sticker shock that can accompany a big-ticket item like a tuba. Potential resale value aside, someone's got to come up with that money, and I can accept that in some cases, it might be a Jin Bao tuba or nothing.

When someone purchases an instrument for a young player, one of two things can happen - they'll either give it up, or they'll stick with it. If they give it up, and a parent has gone the "lowest cost" route, will they end up eating a big loss when they go to resell the instrument? I dunno.

Whether or not a youngster would know the difference between something off a restaurant wall and a Yorkbrunner might be a topic for another thread. My guess, though, is that if they decide to stick with it, they'll go farther with a good quality instrument. If not, the horn can be sold for close to what was paid for it - a free rental, if you will.

Thoughts?

...Dave

[Tubaryan12]

If not, the horn can be sold for close to what was paid for it - a free rental, if you will.

...."lowest cost" route, will they end up eating a big loss when they go to resell the instrument?

That's the rub. When you go the cheapest route, you have already established your highest amount of loss, and on some of these low cost instruments, this can be less than the cost of renting for only a couple of months.

Another thing is that we have all seen intruments at our local music store that have been reasonably priced but sit on the shelf for years! We've even seen horns that were great values end up on "that auction site" because no one had the loot to buy it here.

In this day and age people want certainty. Will they get a good usable horn at a Walmart price?....maybe, but they are certain to only loose $129.99 and that is an attraction some cannot pass up. The car example is perfect and its the only frame of reference most people have to work with when they buy a musical instrument. Like some others have said, they have found great used instruments at garage sales for less than $50 (I have a trumpet I bought for $20 here). When you think of that and then think of laying down $500 - $1000 for a student model instrument I would be nervous too about laying down that amount of money.

[Chuck(G)]

That's the rub. When you go the cheapest route, you have already established your highest amount of loss, and on some of these low cost instruments, this can be less than the cost of renting for only a couple of months.

If most folks really thought like that, the Yugo factory wouldn't have been able to produce enough cars to satisfy consumption.

There's always the matter of repairs--and a lot of these very cheap instruments don't repair very easily. At what point does one elect not to repair a cheaply made item? Suppose you paid $150 for a brand new cheap musical instrument. Something goes wrong, but costs only $50 to repair.

You shell out the 50 clams and you're happy again for awhile. Then something else breaks, but his time, it costs $100 to repair. Well, you've got $150 in the horn and $50 in repairs already, but that money's gone, so it's still more expensive to toss the horn in the landfill than to have it repaired.

And so it goes. When does one give up on repairing?

[Tubaryan12]

If most folks really thought like that, the Yugo factory wouldn't have been able to produce enough cars to satisfy consumption.

No, if most thought like that most would drive Hondas.

No, no chuck. I only meant thats the risk they want to take on a horn. I thought about Yugo too, but the difference is you can find lots of people that will tell you which car is good and which car is bad. When picking out a car you will put in a little more work to find a good one because it will be you that's stranded on the side of the road if you get a bad one. You have a limited number of folks that can give you good advice on a horn. Most non players think of horns just like the average person thinks of baseball gloves, bowling balls, or any other object in life you probably wont get much use out of yourself.

There's always the matter of repairs--and a lot of these very cheap instruments don't repair very easily. At what point does one elect not to repair a cheaply made item?

This is exactly how I feel about T.V.s I generally don't repair them at all. I also won't spend more than $300 on one either

To be honest, I think of these horns as the 1 year risk. When you're not sure what the kid will do (or more importantly, you are sure.....if the kid has a track record of changing directions). If the kid is serious, most won't mind bucking up for the better horn.

[Dan Schultz]

Is there a flute equivalent to this?

Check the auctions. Gemeinhardt SP2 or 4 (silver plated) and SH2's (sterling silver headjoint) usually go for $250 or less. Armstrong, bundy, and Selmer flutes are also good bets. Pads are always an issue with woodwinds so unless the seller can guarantee the pads are OK, save yourself a $150 or so for a repad. Pawn shops around the midwest usually sell descent flutes for under $150. Play it first and again... save some bucks for a repad. But again... putting $250 bucks into a used flute with a repad will put you World's ahead of a 1st Act for the same money. Bright and shiney isn't always a good idea. Beware of flutes that show signs of being bent... even if it's just a mild bend. Tone holes may not be level.

[Lee Stofer]

Yes, there are more inferior instruments flooding the market now than ever. Some can be repaired, but don't count on it. Chinese stringed instruments can be quite good, and some of the woodwinds are quite usable, but I don't think they have the technology and training to make good valvesets yet, which have to be more precise than any mechanism on a woodwind- or stringed instrument.
My first three instruments as a kid came from the pawn shop, all were American-made, and the local repairman made them play great. There are alternatives out there if you scout them out. Whatever you buy, buyer beware - even some of the well-known names from Europe have built a couple of "dogs" recently. If there is doubt in your mind, have someone you trust check it out, maybe even get two opinions.

[Rick Denney]

Of course, there are good deals to be had by knowledgeable buyers.

But what if the buyers are not knowledgeable?

The problem is that the music stores have abandoned the lower price points. If I went into the local music store looking for an inexpensive tuba, the cheapest thing they MIGHT have is a Jupiter. In fact, that's likely the only tuba they would have. And they would charge the same price for it as a King 2341. In that same store, I saw a used Conn Director trombone with a draggy slide that was being sold for $250.

Then, they won't work on instrument that Walmart sells, and as much as anything because they don't want to reward people for not buying from them in the first place.

The thing that is not being said is that there is a market for musical instruments at low price points. Why do the music stores leave it to pawn shops to have a good selection of used stuff on hand? Why do they respond only with vinegar to discounters for selling low-price stuff? Why don't they seek out those manufacturers, make deals, and then ADVERTISE?

I have said over and over again that price is not determined by the seller, but by the buyer. If the music stores are compelled only to sell (from the uneducated parent's point of view) high-priced stuff, then they'll go elsewhere. If some of the cheap imports are a reasonable value and others are junk, why aren't those that are a reasonable value available in the local music stores? Why aren't they advertising to the parents of the local school kids?

You can't blame Wal-Mart for trying to supply an obvious demand.

Rick "who once owned a Sears guitar that any guitar player would have deemed unplayable, bought by parents who didn't know any better, long before such instruments were made in China" Denney

[Dean E]

. . . . The thing that is not being said is that there is a market for musical instruments at low price points. Why do the music stores leave it to pawn shops to have a good selection of used stuff on hand? Why do they respond only with vinegar to discounters for selling low-price stuff? Why don't they seek out those manufacturers, make deals, and then ADVERTISE? . . . .

These are very good points, Rick. Short of opening a five-acre BandWorld with unlimited shelf and floor space and 24-hour buyer traffic, local instrument sellers may have these points in mind, consciously or uncounsciously:

1. Not wanting to cannibalize their own sales in a finite market.

2. Not wanting to offer low-priced alternatives to their moderate-to-high end brands. Increasing supply lowers price.

3. Premium prices are commanded by deliberately under-producing products and keeping the supply down. Harley Davidsons and Corvettes are examples. I can charge a higher price for an instrument if customers are willing to be put on a wait list.

4. Cachet. Starbucks gets a higher price for a cup of coffee than White Gristle.

[Dan Schultz]

If some of the cheap imports are a reasonable value and others are junk, why aren't those that are a reasonable value available in the local music stores? Why aren't they advertising to the parents of the local school kids?

Woodwind/Brasswind seems to have some of this figured out. However, they are dealing great volumes of their store brands. Meanwhile.... the local music stores still seem to be depending on their 'once a week' sales to keep them going. Hmmm.... lesseee... do I want to sit on my butt and make 30% of $1,000 once a week... or would I like to get up off my but once in a while and make 10% of $330 ten times a week?

[Tabor]

Anyone remember the Honda Civics from the early 70's?

There is an orange honda civic which looks like the first year they were produced running around thirty miles south of here.

[MaryAnn]

Why do the music stores leave it to pawn shops to have a good selection of used stuff on hand?

Well, I found out the answer in Colorado recently. The music stores don't take trade-ins because they have to follow the same rules as pawn shops...get ID, wait X amount of time, etc, before they can re-sell it. So they will take the name of someone wanting to trade an instrument and try to hook them up with someone looking for same. No used brass to be found in music stores in Denver.

MA

[Rick Denney]

1. Not wanting to cannibalize their own sales in a finite market.

2. Not wanting to offer low-priced alternatives to their moderate-to-high end brands. Increasing supply lowers price.

3. Premium prices are commanded by deliberately under-producing products and keeping the supply down. Harley Davidsons and Corvettes are examples. I can charge a higher price for an instrument if customers are willing to be put on a wait list.

4. Cachet. Starbucks gets a higher price for a cup of coffee than White Gristle.

Cachet, schmachet. The local guitar store, here in the string-loving Appalachian piedmont, has banjos ranging from the Deering Good-Time to high-end banjos whose names I don't even know because I was scared to look. The price spread goes from about $300 to thousands upon thousands. At each price point, they have the best product available. When a customer comes in, they determine their price point, and then try to find out if they quality desires are in line with their price point. This usually requires talking them up a level or two. Then they have a product to offer them.

Ditto electric basses. They have $300 Chinese imports, and vastly more expensive boutique brands. I'm sure they are the same in their other string lines.

Humorously, this is the same music store that I was complaining about in my previous post. And guess what? The string section is always crowded with customers on Saturdays, while the band-instrument section is empty. Perhaps that's a local market condition, but then why are there better music stores 50 or 60 miles away that do fine?

So, I don't think your principles hold water (even if the Starbucks cup does). Anyone coming in to buy a banjo (my wife fools around with banjo so I keep up with that a little) will appreciate the value of a $1300 Gold Tone if there is a $300 Deering or a $600 Fender to compare it to. Otherwise, they'll shrink away in sticker shock. And if $300 really is their limit, they'll walk out with a serviceable instrument. You always sell high-end stuff by distinguishing it from low-end stuff. The stereo store always has the separate room for the high-end stuff, and the sales guy proudly leads you past the proles to get to it. That's cachet.

There have been cars as interesting as Corvettes that have failed in the market. The lack of supply is not what drives Corvette sales, but rather the image of it GM has been able, over long years, to establish through advertising.

You are only competing with yourself if the cheap instruments aren't distinguishable from the expensive instruments, and that's what I think the music stores are most afraid of: They might discover that if not now, soon, the Chinese imports are just as good as the traditional brands, especially for the typical sixth or seventh grader.

Rick "who thinks quality always sells if it matters" Denney

[Kevin Hendrick]

do I want to sit on my butt and make 30% of $1,000 once a week... or would I like to get up off my but once in a while and make 10% of $330 ten times a week?

Someone might need to mind their zeros.

Lessee ... 30% of $1,000 is $300 ... 10% of $330 is $33, times 10 is $330. Would I turn down a 10% raise ($330 vs. $300) just to avoid the various health benefits of rising from my "posteriority complex" twice a day? I don't think so ...

[tubarepair]

Send 'em to me. I'll work of 'em A lady brough in a Rosetti trumpet a few weeks ago that had sticky valves. An hour with a honing stone and a fine file removing burrs in the guide slots had the horn playing pretty well. It will get 'Little Johnny' through middle school and if he decides to continue playing his parents will probably buy him a better quality horn.

First, let me say that I don’t have a sky is falling mentality when it comes to Chinese horns. Either they will get better or they will be gone. Any repair tech that has worked on late 1960’s Yamaha brass knows how poorly they were designed and the poor quality materials they used. Same with Jupiter in the 1980’s. They got better. That is why Yamaha is the #1 seller and Jupiter is right behind them. The caveat here is these companies have excellent warranties and parts are readily available – not so for many of the Chinese horns, but I suspect we will see a change in that area.

Having said that, an hour of repair shop labor is usually $60 -$80, so honing those valves is usually a difficult sell to a customer who spent $109.00 for that trumpet new last week.

My basic philosophy is that if a Chinese horn plays reasonably well and is somewhat durable, than it is fine for a beginner. Those folks will be back for a step-up or pro horn if the kid sticks with it and I will make a sale at that time. Many shops refuse to work on these imports and that is completely their choice. However, if I can do a reasonable repair AND guarantee it, I’ll do it. Again, a future customer for a used step-up horn that I didn't upset earlier.

Personally, I’d take a used Bundy flute, Vito clarinet, or even a Mexi-Conn sax over some of the stuff currently made by the “Americanâ€

[Chuck(G)]

As a taxpayer, I'm looking at public school children who destroy instruments within one or two years. If they're destroyed after two years, when were they ever (really) "played"?

"Destroyed" is pretty close to reality--bottom bows pounded nearly flat, bell rims folded over on themselves, piston valves with holes poked in them.

While the orchestra kids do have their share of mishaps, it seems that band (and we're not talking marching band here) brings out the psychotic streak in kids.

Someone's missing the boat by not manufacturing easy-to-service and nearly-indestructible school instruments, like this "Rent a Horn":



Gold paint finish, no-nonsense braces, built in short, easy-to-replace sections, chrome-plated vavle pistons.

(It actually plays very nicely!)

[tubarepair]

Someone's missing the boat by not manufacturing easy-to-service and nearly-indestructible school instruments, like this "Rent a Horn"

http://mytrumpets.info/images/olds_pinto05.jpg

Like this Olds Pinto...

Very hard, brass-lined plastic casings.
Recessed valve caps.
Interchangable valves. (Remember the Yamaha YBB103 tuba?)
Interchangable slides.
Easily replaceable parts, virtually no soldering.
Top action pistons that make it difficult to misalign the guides. (like most trumpets)
Available in Nickel with black casing as the Reynolds Ranger.

[Pippen]

While the orchestra kids do have their share of mishaps...

You can say that again. My first instrument was a string bass. It survived rides home on top of my Mom's little Gremlin (3 kids + driver = no room for bass) with me hanging out the window to hold on. The bow did not survive the dog who climbed up to the middle of the dining room table to apparently fetch and chew one day while we were gone.