Finding YOUR Style

The bulk of the musical talk
User avatar
TexTuba
5 valves
5 valves
Posts: 1424
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 5:01 pm

Post by TexTuba »

Ok this has been taken WAY out of context. So let me say that I used a poor choice of words. Let me clarify because I'm a moron who many times shouldn't be let in front of a computer. What I mean is many times people play solos JUST as they're written(at least the ones I've heard). Yes, you should respect what the composer wrote but a soloist should also put their mark on it. Band music you don't have that kind of freedom because you just can't and shouldn't do it unless it says improv. But a soloist, because that IS what I was referring to, should have that option. For example, I can't stand the cadenza in the 3rd mvmt. of the Gregson Tuba Cto. So I changed it. When I would work on the Rimsky-Korsakov Tbone Cto. I didn't like the cadenza so I changed that as well. Many people change the VW cadenza and it sounds quite good. If you ever hear Christian Lindberg recordings he changes solos quite often. I'm not saying he's right for doing it but he does it because I suppose he likes them that way. I'm NOT saying change the entire damn solo. "Hmm, Plog wrote measure 1-100 wrong, so Ima fix it." :lol: All I'm saying is that a soloist has the creative freedom to change what he/she sees fit, no matter on how small or large a scale. And as far as making a walking bass line out of two notes, well you'd look like a complete jackass for doing it. :roll:


Ralph
User avatar
Stefan
bugler
bugler
Posts: 193
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 6:30 am
Location: Southern York County. PA.
Contact:

Post by Stefan »

Put the tuba down and just sing your music. Don't be shy - sing it with as much "feeling" as you can. Then imitate that on the tuba.

How you develop "style" or "musicality" or "feeling" is another issue. Yes, like others have said, listen to great musicians.

Stefan
User avatar
Rick Denney
Resident Genius
Posts: 6650
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 1:18 am
Contact:

Post by Rick Denney »

TexTuba wrote:Ok this has been taken WAY out of context.
Yes, that sometimes happens. But readers will do it even if they don't ask about it. That is what makes writing hard, heh, heh.

A cadenza is marked as such and permission to make changes is expressly granted by the composer, depending I suppose on the period of the music.

An example: I once heard a well-known tuba player perform the Vaughan Williams (no, nobody you've ever heard me talk about by name). The closing notes of the first movement go from a low F to a low Eb to a low F. He changed that to match the line of the opening of the movement. It didn't sound bad, but my first reaction was--why did he do that? What artistic purpose was served? I was distracted through half the second movement mulling over his apparent need to out-compose the good Dr. Vaughan Williams. I still can't find any reason to justify his choice.

But on the recently provided recording of Bill Bell playing the Vaughan Williams, he purposely left off the high bits of the first-movement cadenza, which I though was a good decision on his part and it was musically appropriate in addition to being practical. Again, it was a cadenza, which is designed to allow the soloist to show off his technical ability.

Now, if my first exemplar had played the entire work with so much mastery that he could really see a next step, then it would be easier to justify. But he did not demonstrate such mastery, and that made the choice seem rather presumptuous to me. If it had made the work sound worse, then the audience would think it Vaughan Williams's fault, and not the performer's. I don't think the performer has that right.

Bell, on the other hand, remained true to what Vaughan Williams wrote, and in some ways truer than subsequent recordings that show more technical polish.

I was once in a quintet that had a trumpet player who thought a lot of himself (that should identities safely anonymous, heh, heh). I suggested that we end a particular work (it was a Canadian Brass arrangement) in the way written and performed by the CB. He said, "We should seek our own style and not just copy what others have done." My response was that when we were playing all the notes, phrasings, articulations, dynamics, and other written instructions correctly, then we had earned the right to "seek our own style." Until then, application of some schmaltzy stylistic trick would just highlight what we were not doing. Again, the musical expression, which is the basis of style, starts where the instructions leave off.

I once played under a super conductor who told our group: "Professional musicians play the right note at the right time, with the right articulation and the right dynamic. They must do a lot more to be any good, but they nearly always do that much." He was warning a bunch of amateurs not to take too many artistic liberties before establishing mastery over the music.

Rick "who has never mastered anything that well" Denney
Shockwave
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 313
Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2004 7:27 pm

Post by Shockwave »

Changing things in a piece of written music is a tricky matter. On the one hand, every writer of music would like to change a few things they've written. On the other hand, people who make alterations often want to take credit and even share in the royalties for making very small alterations, often without permission. I've seen a couple of my arrangements with minor rhythm changes and someone else's name at the top. It is ok to do whatever you want with repeats, articulations, dynamics, and even instrumentation, but leave the notes and rhythms alone. If you want to change notes and rhythms, you should be able to write your own piece of music.

-Eric
User avatar
TexTuba
5 valves
5 valves
Posts: 1424
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 5:01 pm

Post by TexTuba »

Shockwave wrote: If you want to change notes and rhythms, you should be able to write your own piece of music.
-Eric

That's like saying if you can change some cylinder heads on a car you should be able to build one from scratch.





Ralph
User avatar
funkcicle
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 275
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 5:23 pm
Location: Asheville, NC

Post by funkcicle »

TexTuba wrote:
Shockwave wrote: If you want to change notes and rhythms, you should be able to write your own piece of music.
-Eric

That's like saying if you can change some cylinder heads on a car you should be able to build one from scratch.

Ralph
No, but you should have a thorough understanding of how the engine is constructed. The ability to change a gasket does not equal the necessity to change a gasket, and the same holds true with music.
tubajoe
pro musician
pro musician
Posts: 589
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 2:51 pm
Location: NYC
Contact:

Post by tubajoe »

Remember this:

There are NOT any rules.

If you think there are rules, seek and you will find all sorts of people who have created new ground and/or new understanding by breaking them.

Do your thing and dont let anyone tell you otherwise.
User avatar
Rick Denney
Resident Genius
Posts: 6650
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 1:18 am
Contact:

Post by Rick Denney »

tubajoe wrote:Remember this:

There are NOT any rules.

If you think there are rules, seek and you will find all sorts of people who have created new ground and/or new understanding by breaking them.

Do your thing and dont let anyone tell you otherwise.
Fine, but be honest about it. If you are going to change a composer's music, tell people up front so that if it sucks the composer won't get the blame.

Rick "Do not break the rules before learning them" Denney
tubajoe
pro musician
pro musician
Posts: 589
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 2:51 pm
Location: NYC
Contact:

Post by tubajoe »

Rick Denney wrote:
tubajoe wrote:Remember this:

There are NOT any rules.

If you think there are rules, seek and you will find all sorts of people who have created new ground and/or new understanding by breaking them.

Do your thing and dont let anyone tell you otherwise.
Fine, but be honest about it. If you are going to change a composer's music, tell people up front so that if it sucks the composer won't get the blame.

Rick "Do not break the rules before learning them" Denney
Of course.

I never said change the composer's music. If you change it, you are making a decision -- it either becomes your own arrangment of the original composition, or it just becomes irrisponsible interpretation.

joe "spending too much time these days dancing about archetecture" shmoe

8)
TubaRay
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 4109
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:24 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Contact:

Re: Let's get back on track.

Post by TubaRay »

VoiceofReason wrote: End of rant.
WOW!!! A rather long rant, but some quite good thoughts to be contemplated. I would certainly agree that we should always focus on making music. Indeed, this is often the problem with the(shall we say) "ordinary" tuba players.

I will quickly add that I understand a highly scientific study was done of TubeNet tuba players which found that 99.99412% of those on this list are not one of those "ordinary" tuba players. However, we must understand that the majority of the world's tuba players are ordinary. Those guys(and gals) are the reason the rest of us "never get no respect."
Ray Grim
The TubaMeisters
San Antonio, Tx.
User avatar
Rick Denney
Resident Genius
Posts: 6650
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 1:18 am
Contact:

Re: Let's get back on track.

Post by Rick Denney »

VoiceofReason wrote:Once again, the current posts have wandered away from the topic at hand.
Oh, sorry. Conversations do that, though. One idea leads to another and the topic drifts. Lots of good stuff comes out of that, as well as lots that is just chatter. But that's the way it works.

I went back and read your other post to remind myself of the context of this. I don't disagree with your general point of being a musician first and a tuba player second (I do not accept your distinction between tuba players and tubists--neither gets at the point of musicians who happen to play tuba). Nor would anyone else. But as I review the answers in this thread, listening and understanding seemed to be at the heart of most of them, rather than anything one might do to manipulate the instrument. So, I think you are preaching to the choir.

I wonder if Arnold Jacobs, who was that most musical of tuba players, took extra classes in theory and studied all the different versions of Palleas et Millisande from Schoenberg to Debussey. And I wonder if he spent a lot of time studying why Palestrina was different than Purcell. I do think he spend a lot of time listening to great musicians make great music, and he made sure to incorporate what they were doing musically into his own playing. It is probably true that he spent more time doing that than many today, but then I suspect that was true then, too.

But at some point you have to put the book down and pick up the instrument. There may well be too much emphasis on "my" in current practice, though I don't really think so. I'm just a second-rate amateur, but I not that infrequently get lost during rehearsal because I was distracted by the music. I don't think I'm all that unusual. What I lack is the ability to make those musical choices in real time, and bring them forth on the instrument. The problem is the disconnect between what we like when we hear it and what we produce when we play it. That's a matter of skill as much as anything.

So, I think there is a balance between listening, understanding, and doing. It takes all three to get to the point where a musician can make a clear musical statement.

Rick "who has listened to plenty of both Palestrina and Purcell and who...just...listens" Denney
User avatar
funkcicle
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 275
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 5:23 pm
Location: Asheville, NC

Re: Let's get back on track.

Post by funkcicle »

[quote="VoiceofReason"]Aiming for “styleâ€
User avatar
adam0408
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 393
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:58 am
Location: In the back row, playing wrong notes.

Post by adam0408 »

I want to find my style.... I desperately want to find my style. I think, through playing with an ensemble of brass players, I have found my style with that sort of group. That being in the scenario where I am in charge. I have been the big fish for soooooo long I dont remember what its like to play "second fiddle" (enough cliches for you yet?)

I have just begun to play with a superb community band, and have been playing dead last chair. Not necessarily because of my ability, but because thats how it ended up, and I am really enjoying it. my style has changed. I now listen up to the principle for my cues.

My whole point being that in an ensemble you should always put the needs of the music first, the balance your section leader puts forward second, and your idea of the interpretation third. Always blend. I guess that was kinda already said, but I wanted to uphold that thinking.

Solo playing, go for it. Who cares what people think. Give it all youve got and make that tuba sing for you. When youre in an ensemble youre a team player, but when its just you on that stage, youre the gladiator, the last man standing. Make the audience remember you. That is what will make our instrument what it deserves to be.
Post Reply