Economics

[Donn]

Really - turning the entire economic system on it's head to save Harley - Davidson? Who has by the way shifted US production meant for the European Union from the US to its plant in Thailand. [etc.]

The point is not that an industry saved by tariff is thereafter expected to save the country, or be elevated to economic sainthood for eternity. If you want to address moves like the Thailand plant, that would have to be done in the present climate, not by a tariff 30 years ago. The relevance of that tariff 30 years ago is simply the industry it was supposed to help, did in fact manage to pull itself out of the ditch under tariff protection. That doesn't mean that every idiotic tariff will help us, and I don't by any means defend any action taken or proposed by the US in the last several years, but in our rush to oppose national insanity, we don't have to make a religion out of the global economy. (A tariff means "turning the entire economic system on it's head"?) Tariffs can be bad, and they can be good.

[My personal motorcycle side note - recently sold, but I had a 1985 Moto Guzzi, a non-domestic heavy motorcycle that could have been subject to the tariff too, but maybe wasn't - motorcycles from England and Italy were exempted up to a limit of 4,000 a year. Moto Guzzi had for years been making police motorcycles for the US market, after an ambitious importer managed to sell them to police departments, notably LAPD, while HD was snoozing under the mistaken impression they had that market sewed up. Between that and their suitability for open road touring, they were selling 5,000 a year in the US, in the '70s, much of that from HD's customer base. Honda followed up in '78, with a miniature Guzzi clone, the CX500 - side-to-side V twin, shaft drive, electric start only. Under the weight limit for heavy motorcycles, but the point is, if the Japanese were missing out on some part of the US motorcycle market, it was only a matter of time.]

As for our tremendous strengths - sure. Won't help us as we get crowded out of our ever narrower economic niches by countries that are more able to act in their own interest and not the global capitalists', but I expect we'll be able to rebuild, when the party is over. I joke about corn, but the worst long term danger is really that "conventional" agriculture is going to leave us with neither topsoil nor fresh water, and that might be the worst threat in the long term.

[Donn]

Our crap is unfortunately too packed with pharmaceuticals and heavy metals, to serve as a wholesome soil amendment.

And another thing, while I'm ranting about the good things brought to us by the global economy, and returning to some extent to the topic -- yeah, things are cheaper. Things like tubas. But curiously we don't seem to be more affluent in ways that really count, other than owning truckloads of things. In the '70s I could work a part time mailroom job and rent an apartment, and save money for school; today you'd have to work two full time mailroom jobs, and just forget the school. Wonder if the rising cost of life and the dwindling cost of things is somehow related? What if tubas were really expensive like they used to be, but you could afford to own a home, put kids through college, even just afford leisure time - would it be worth it?

[WC8KCY]

currency manipulation:

I'm sure glad this doesn't occur with USD.

I am likewise glad that the EU, Canada, Mexico, and Australia don't do it, either.

All the central bankers of the above entities should be commended for the great restraint they demonstrated in regards to monetary policy, especially during 2008-2009.

[Three Valves]

Sweet white corn on the cob is the only good corn there is.

No, I do not care that it has been GMO’d!!

Please pass the butter and Old Bay...

[WC8KCY]

It seems to me that since WWII, there has been a market for entry-level tubas and other wind instruments that the established American makers haven chosen not to fully participate in.

From just after the war to the early '60s, Martin Freres flooded the USA market with cheap French wooden clarinets. Around that same time, scores of cheap Italian Orsi-built woodwinds and brasswinds were resold by Getzen (under their Elkhorn label) and various purveyors of stencil instruments. Couesnon/Lafayette sold significant numbers of not-quite-as-cheap French instruments at prices that still undercut established American builders.

After that, we saw waves of GDR-built and Czech instruments come to market here in North America, followed by Yamaha around 1970, then Jupiter from Taiwan, and now the various Chinese builders.

Other than Holton adding some Yamaha-sourced tubas to its lineup, it seems the established American builders have been content to just hand over the entry-level tuba market to the aggressively-priced imports.

[WC8KCY]

yes and no...
Most of the brands that you mention - typically - were carried by secondary/tertiary music stores and combo shops (that mostly sold guitars/drums) sin cities (with the top stores carrying the big brands, ALL WHO manufactured beginner-grade instruments and sold trainloads of them.

The Martin Bros. clarinets that you mention were "pretty good" Buffet knock-offs.

But, compare the postwar market to the Interwar years: The entry-level brasswind market was dominated by Pan American, Cavalier, Gladiator, American Standard, Cleveland, and their associated stencils. Cundy-Bettoney was the major player in entry-level metal clarinets and flutes, while Pruefer had a range of low-priced ebonite and wooden clarinets. All of these were built in the USA, and competition for the entry-level segment of the brasswind market was intense. The "cheap import" brasswinds, while always around, didn't really gain much traction until after WWII.

Regarding Martin Freres: It's long been known that the workers at the top clarinet builders around Paris moonlighted making clarinets at lesser makers' facilities. Some of the off-brand clarinets, as a result, were built by top craftsmen and can be fine instruments. Someday, a good example of one of these will come along too cheap to pass up, and I'll give it a trial...

[toobagrowl]

And another thing, while I'm ranting about the good things brought to us by the global economy, and returning to some extent to the topic -- yeah, things are cheaper. Things like tubas.

Come again? Tubas are more expensive than ever, except for the budget-priced Chinese ones. Just over the past 20 years, the pricing for most German tubas have doubled in price. Some models have nearly tripled in price, far surpassing inflation. There are even some so-called "high-end" Chinese tubas now that are pretty much in the same price range as some Western-made tubas, which I never thought I'd see But it is very obvious that it is the 'middle man' (importer/distributor with thier name on them) that are the ones marking-way-up those Chinese tubas to make them appear high-end/high-quality to appeal to more people. The "W" brand in particular often talked about on here is the one I'm thinking of

The cheapest tubas are still - usually - cheap. Currently-manufactured American expensive tubas are - again - resembling the cheapest tubas more-and-more.
Accusations of "thin" are far more properly-assigned to American sousaphones (as an example) than any other...and though "thin" and "cheap" are not synonyms (as "thin" can also be related to manufacturing elegance), "thin" isn't a particularly good idea - in my view - for outdoor-use brass instruments.

I'm not sure I'd call the modern Conn-Selmer stuff "expensive", especially considering labor costs, parts/materials costs, and how they compare price-wise with expensive/very-expensive German/Swiss/Japanese tubas.
Even you stated here that some of the more expensive Chinese tubas are still more expensive comparatively to the old American tubas, even accounting for inflation. Add to the fact that the vintage American tubas and sousas were handmade and were built to a higher standard decades ago than they are now.
You also stated here that even the most expensive tubas are still relatively cheap compared to some high-end woodwinds and strings, so......