another "which tuba would you get" question

horto008 · Post by **horto008** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:31 pm

Since I only seem to write when I agree with another person's post. I'll agree with Rick in the statement that the VMI is a fine horn. You can get the 6/4 neptune, which is the kissing cousin of the pt7, for a pretty good discount.
Personally, I feel that the 5/4 Rudy is much more on the line with a 6/4 VMI/Perantucci anyway... God help the people who own 6/4 BBb Rudy horns.

As far as the 5/4 CC Rudy...I always loved playing one -- and the one I played wasn't even that great. VERY dark sound. Of course, if you like to splat some notes every so often, good luck!

If someone were to give me one of the three (vmi/pt6/rudy)...I'd take the VMI Neptune

just my $.02

oh and i own a pt6 lol

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:36 pm

Josh07 wrote:Basically I'm in a situation where I have two great, big CC tubas, a Mira 1291 and a Rudy 5/4. They're very different, and I only want to keep one (sell the Mira and buy the Rudy, or keep the Mira). Where the Mira has a sweet bright sound, the Rudy has a dark ominous sound. I don't have to lip anything up or down, or use alt. fingerings on either horn. I could go to Germany and have Nirschl or Rudy build a custom tuba, but why do that. I will say I like the Mira rotaries better---they're faster. However, there is an undeniable appeal to the Rudy. What a great horn. I'm just wondering if I could win auditions on it.

Speaking as one of Rick's "fools"...

It seems to me that quite a few auditions get won on 4/4 instruments, which have a lot going for them, not the least of which is decent intonation. Wouldn't it be better to have a horn that doesn't get in the way or feel like a big truck (no offense, Schlep

) than to play the "biggest horn wins" game? You can always buy a big cannon after you win the audition...

Or so it seems from where I'm sitting.

horto008 · Post by **horto008** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:58 pm

At the risk of getting flamed for the next good while, I will say that I have never ever played any type of Miraphone that I would want to take with me to any type of audition.

Rudy > any miraphone in my book.

Just remember that whether you'll win an audtion has VERY little to do with your equipment than with your ability -- yes i'm sure you know that, but stating "I'm just wondering if I could win auditions on it" doesn't make it sound that way.

Different strokes for different folks. Different horns for different players. Whether this board or me or Gene Pokorny prefer the Rudy over the Miraphone over the Jupiter 3/4 Bb doesn't really make that much of a difference. How you sound to someone competent to judge how you sound is all that matters. Take your teacher/professor with you when you demo a horn.

Before someone who knows me reminds me, I'm just a very serious amateur player. I bought a great horn and then realized it was my lack of dedication which dictated that I should follow a different career path. And honestly, I think most people on this board who never succeeded as professional musicians wouldn't begin to blame their equipment as the reason for their downfall -- Rudy, Miraphone, whatever.

Alright..i'm done.

porkchopsisgood · Post by **porkchopsisgood** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:16 pm

I knew it would come out sooner or later....

You're only 17.

Buy the F back, and get ready for college. The Rudy will be fine for auditions. So will the 1291. The question is will you?

I would surmise yes. As long as you worry about what is coming out of the horn as opposed to which horn it's going through. As for the F being too much....pish posh: you learned the CC didn't you (or did you?)....two weeks on the F and you should be good to go.

As for the quote "gotta love deceased grandmothers"......damn, man.

Still....good luck....and don't worry so much....

_________
Allen V. Carter
Temple University
Tuba Holder

Tuba "perfessional" for the past 15 years

porkchopsisgood · Post by **porkchopsisgood** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:42 pm

It's all good....

I think it's just important to realize it's about the MUSIC. Worry about the music and you'll never go wrong.

I've played on a Cerveny ACB 601 for the past 10 years....I won't lie: it's a dog. But I've made some very beautiful music with it, and when I retire it (most likely for a 1291...

), it will be with a heavy heart for it has served me well.

The B&S PT-10 I use is a decent instrument as well, but when I finally get my own horn (since it belongs to the school I attend), I will most likely pick up a 45slp....so you see, I have a vested interested in the horns you are trying to get rid of!! Unfortunately....I'm kinda broke right now, or we'd be talking a little more closely.....

And hey LV....thanks for the kind words...You learn a couple of things when you're trying to feed yourself with a tuba!!

Chuck Jackson · Post by **Chuck Jackson** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:43 pm

Damn, there is where I went wrong. I didn't have rich parents and had to make due with an Alexander that my Mom helped me buy and that I worked my butt off paying for for 3 years. Why didn't someone tell me.

Chuck"who could care or less what tuba is around as long as the valves work and the slides on a good day and still plays on the same mouthpiece he bought in HS and has a had some small success on them"Jackson

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:46 pm

Josh07 wrote:Gentlemen, gentlemen. None of yas have answered my first two basic quesshins: How do you like the big Rudy C, and how would it stack up in auditions against Nirschl Yorks and YamaYorks? (In the real world... like in major auditions... like what if A. Baer had played a big Rudy instead of the Gronitz?)

I owned a 5/4 Rudy Meinl CC at one time...

It was a fine tuba, but a dang big one. It was a lot of fun to play, was nimble, and intonation was really pretty good. I traded off an F tuba for it that I wasn't too wild about to get it, and then ended up selling it to buy another F tuba (the one I'd had my eye on for some time), as I already had a 4/4 CC that worked very well for me. I've since sold that 4/4 and purchased a different tuba, but I don't see myself as one who goes through tubas a lot...now that I've worked my way up to what I really wanted in the first place, I don't anticipate any equipment changes.

So...the Rudy was good, but not so good that it ended up being hung on to, for what that's worth to you...

As for Alan Baer...he could probably do it on a Rudy Meinl 5/4. This might also be a good time to point out that he spends a lot of time playing the 1291 in the New York Philharmonic...food for thought.

I dumped the F tuba because learning two sets of fingerings is too much for my 17-year-old brain. I played BBb tuba until this spring, when I inherited some money and bought my first 2 tubas, a MW45SLP and then the 1291. Gotta love deceased grandmothers!

I don't think I would have done that, but that's just me, especially if you're as serious about all of this as you've led everyone to believe. I'd bet you'll want another F tuba, and someday you'll probably be sorry you didn't keep it and learn F tuba. I think I'd stick it out with the 1291 for now and shop for an F if I had to be spending the money on a tuba right now. Besides, everywhere I look you're talking about how great your 1291 is. If you're tuba really has the perfect intonation for you that you say it has, that's really worth something.

By the way...I've read the comment later on in the thread, but the deceased grandmother comment was not done in good taste.

I'm not interested in VMI. The VMI's I played at a certain tuba shop in Woodbridge, NJ really stunk the big one. (Not to offend any VMI fans...) And besides, I kinda already dropped $$ on the Rudy. The Rudy is dang big but I like it. It's fun to play and I'm not forcing it like on Alex and B&S. Is the 5/4 Rudy pretty much the biggest CC one can get?

I have heard from a very reliable source (one of those pros you speak so highly of

) that the used one that sat in their shop was quite a nice tuba.

Anyway...

It sounds like you already did the deal on the Rudy.

I would have suggested spending a lot of time trying everything you could get your hands on (and maybe you did). For example, I know of a person (a pro, if that matters) that went looking for a new tuba and walked away with a very different tuba than he seemed to have in mind when he went shopping, by his account.

Oh...and just what is it that you didn't like about the 1291?

OK... once again I'll probly insult half of you... but here's why I don't particularly like York-style tubas. I have never played a York-style tuba that impressed me. I've played---literally---prolly a hundred York-ish horns: Hirsbrunners, Perantuccis, Kalisons, chopped-down BBb's, etc etc etc. I have yet to get my hands on York clone and LIKE it. I even played one of Floyd Cooley's mega$$$ NirschlYorks, and it was like spitting into a barrel. My attitude is, the 5/4 Rudy sitting next to me is just as good of a horn (if not better) than York/YamaYork/etc., and I paid 1/3 the price.

Something tells me (maybe it's the "I played BBb tuba until this spring" part or the "I'm 17" part) you aren't really qualified to say all that...

Just my $.02

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:50 pm

Josh07 wrote:Gentlemen, gentlemen. None of yas have answered my first two basic quesshins: How do you like the big Rudy C, and how would it stack up in auditions against Nirschl Yorks and YamaYorks?

I think it's probably a good three inches taller.

But I'm going to disagree with others (and I can do that since I'm just another fool in the gallery), and say that the instrument is important. Several of the top recent audition winner have reported that they changed equipment on the basis of auditions they had done, and that the change had made the difference in their ultimate success. I have this feeling that their change of equipment accompanied a change of sound concept, but it's probably hard to separate those effects.

Is the 5/4 Rudy pretty much the biggest CC one can get?

No. There is the 6/4 Rudy.

Choose the equipment that meets your requirements. The tricky part is knowing your requirements, and that's where the experience and musicianship comes in. You use equipment that supports your concept, but your concept has to be musical, and it has to be more musical than anyone else's to win an audition. Most of us in the "fools" category define (and limit) our concept based merely on our technical abilities. Most real pros had a well-defined and superior concept before reaching a selection of equipment, and they constantly test their equipment choices against their concept.

So, is your concept musically compelling enough to surpass the competition? Are you able to produce your concept? Does your equipment support your concept? All three of those have to be a glow-in-the-dark YES to be competitive in a perfeshunal audition.

Lee Hipp plays the VMI Neptune in the pro-orchestra gig you hope to get someday. Gene Pokorny plays THE York. Norm Pearson plays a Yamayork. Alan Baer plays a Gronitz. Mike Sanders plays a Yorkbrunner. Dave Kirk plays a Nirschl. Matt Good plays a Meinl-Weston. Most of these guys won their current gigs on this or similar equipment. All of them developed their concept on different, and in many cases, lesser equipment.

Rick "whose tubas are not the problem" Denney

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:06 pm

bloke wrote:To heck with college. The heck with worryin' about "which tuba?". I sounds to me like you just kick back for the next four years or so, and you'll find yourself in a position to buy an orchestra.

Yeah, there's a money-maker for ya.

Steve Marcus · Post by **Steve Marcus** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 8:06 pm

One walks on thin ice when one questions the erudite Rick Denney.

However...

Rick Denney wrote:
Is the 5/4 Rudy pretty much the biggest CC one can get?
No. There is the 6/4 Rudy.

Keeping in mind that the 5/4 Rudy is comparable in size to what other manufacturers label a 6/4, isn't the actual 6/4 Rudy only built in BBb?

"BBb-Tuba, large King-size tuba, 6/4 Size, 22'', 4 Valves
An impressive tuba such as is prefered in large orchestras for the works of Wagner. This instrument has all the prerequisites for producing a maximum of volume without detriment to its perfect purity of intonation."

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 8:28 pm

Steve Marcus wrote:Keeping in mind that the 5/4 Rudy is comparable in size to what other manufacturers label a 6/4, isn't the actual 6/4 Rudy only built in BBb?

I'll take your word for it. I'd be surprised if the folks at Rudolf Meinl would refuse to make a 6/4 in CC if someone requested it (and paid for it in advance).

The point was this: "There is always a bigger fish," even if the Rudy 5/4 is as big as most other so-called 6/4 instruments.

If size is that important, then why limit the choices to C?

Rick "seeing conflicting objectives in youthful assertions" Denney

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:04 pm

Josh07 wrote:I just wanna say, that I love the sound of this 5/4 Rudy. This is just a great tuba. My high register needs some work (like on Bydlo and Berlioz Fantastique tuba 1), but this is a sweet tuba. Everyone should play these.

However, if it were any bigger, it would be too big.

Okay, Josh, I can understand that. But then, why are you even asking?

MikeMason · Post by **MikeMason** » Sat Jul 23, 2005 1:27 am

Hey Josh, we all(most)prefer to buy equipment to shore up our weaknesses instead of practicing.However,......you can't buy good chops or musicality.You have to earn it in a neverending pursuit.You have a really good make and model of horn.Fall in love with it for the next 5 or so years and when you come up for air,check back with us. Good luck....(advice i wish i had taken 20 years ago)...

cornholio · Post by **cornholio** » Sat Jul 23, 2005 10:01 am

MikeMason wrote:Hey Josh, we all(most)prefer to buy equipment to shore up our weaknesses instead of practicing.However,......you can\'t buy good chops or musicality.You have to earn it in a neverending pursuit.You have a really good make and model of horn.Fall in love with it for the next 5 or so years and when you come up for air,check back with us. Good luck....(advice i wish i had taken 20 years ago)...

I don\'t see either tuba on Josh\'s "short list" as instruments that would be very effective along those lines.