24AW - in praise of

[sousaphone68]

What I don't now like quite so much about the 24AW is the tone is slightly woolly compared to other mouthpieces and it does seem small to me now. With the EEb I currently prefer the Denis Wick Heritage 2XL which has similar wide rounded rim but is slightly larger and gives good definition. Phil if you have not tried, worth check out.

I would agree with the woolly comment I tried one for a day and did not like the amount of extra effort and concentration required to achieve the articulation and tone that I wanted and was used to getting from my other mouthpiece.
I use a DW 1l heritage with my Eb having moved over the years as I grew and my instruments changed from a DW 5 to a DW 3 to DW 2 for my New Standard and DW1L for my Sousaphone and clone.
I am going to borrow a 24AW to see if I can get to grips with it.

[bilmac]

Hmmmmmmmmm. Have been watching this one for a few days. I've been playing for 40 plus years now on compensating instruments mostly but not always. When I started ,Fletcher was the Man and everybody seemed to copy what he did so you got yourself a VB 24 AW and off you went. So did I.I made a really good sound on it both in bands and orchestra but never felt entirely confident playing it, it had a nasty bad habit of catching you out when you least expected it. Probably due to my deficiencies as a player as much as anything but it did knock what was otherwise a fairly confident/competent player.I wrote to Fletcher about this and to his great credit not knowing me or anything about me, he took the time to write me back to say he had something of a love /hate relationship with it himself . I still have that letter as a treasured possession.I perservered but did try things along the way like Wicks(not very comfortable and bland) Schilke(blow the house down but sounds like a power tool when pushed)Perantucci( 84,very good but hard work in a band when you've got to play all night and it 's never off your face)Breslmair(liked that a lot)JK(probably what I'm drifting towards at present)and lastly a Floyd Cooley special which is like an old Conn Helleburg. It's very good but my tuba playing son has purloined it. My slight criticism is that it is slightly lean in sound but it is crisp and clear.The point is that they are all much easier to play. I find I don't have to think about note preparation, production etc.at all or very little, I just blow and it all comes out just fine.( By the way, mouthpiece collecting for tuba players isn't cheap.)
I used to wonder if face shape had something to do with it. I have a broad flat face with even dentition and plenty of lip tissue . My tuba playing son is just the same. He won't play the 24AW at all.Would somebody like to pick up on this face shape and tuba players point?
I have drifted backwards and forwards from the 24AW but always seem to end up where I started.
Now , here's the trap. None of the other mouthpieces make that big comfortable sound that integrates so well in a brass band as the 24AW when stuck on a compensator EE flat. The conjunction of the two is undeniably effective.Other mouthpieces sound good but not as good. As long as we are faced with compensating instruments as part of our set up in British brass bands we might be stuck .
I have played Rotary and non british instruments in brass bands but none of them had the blend.
Outside of bands I have done quite a lot of orchestral work but not much recently. I have a different sound in my head for that and readily use a different mouthpiece(s) for that.Not the 24 AW which can be tricky after having sat out for ten minutes and then having to play something pp in the middle register.
So perhaps the trade off is to sacrifice some of the voluptious sound for manoeuvrability and use the JK 5A. Not sure.

[peter birch]

I am sure that one day someone will produce a mouthpiece that will cause Bach, Wick, Perantucci, G&W, mike Finn and everyone else to say "that it folks, this beats everything we have ever done, lets pack up!". Until then we are left with a range of very good mouthpieces from which we have to choose the one (or two or several depending on resources) that suits us best. Now, if that is a VB24AW, or a Denis Wick 3, or one of Blokes mouthpieces, what of it?
Based on my 40 or so years of playing, the 24AW is superior to the Denis Wicks playing the compensated EEbs and BBbs that I have played. Now I am nothing special, so my experience is just that - my experience, no less or more valid or right than anyone else's. I would recommend the 24AW, but I am not offended if someone ignores me. Yes it is harder work to play with, and if you had to make some physical and mental effort to play beautifully with one, then I would have say "man up and make that effort" it is worth it.
the 24 shaped mouthpiece does have its challenges, if you over blow it sounds truly awful (even more so than the Denis Wicks), but I have never burned my embouchure out playing on one, and it would appear that the DW XL mouthpieces are incorporating some of the features of the 24AW in their design.
there is a fairly new kid on the block over in the Alliance brand from Roger Webster, with input form James Gourlay for the tuba mouthpieces. They have taken over from the Wicks as the supplied mouthpiece for Besson instruments and have been well received and reviewed, I have just got hold of a Les Neish signature from Alliance and I'm having some fun with it, it has a good focussed, ringing high range, it is a bit more difficult below a bottom F but I have the 24 for when I need that range.

[PhilGreen]

The UK awaits a modern-day St. Patrick to come and drive all of the 24AW's out of the band halls...

Won 't be me - I can't stand the black stuff!

[Wyvern]

The UK awaits a modern-day St. Patrick to come and drive all of the 24AW's out of the band halls...

It amuses me that the Americans seem to have so little regard for this classic American mouthpiece - while over the pond in England it is the most popular tuba mouthpiece and not just in band rooms, but music conservatoire's, and concert halls too...

[sousaphone68]

The UK awaits a modern-day St. Patrick to come and drive all of the 24AW's out of the band halls...

You need a modern St George to slay your 24aw dragon for England
St David for Wales and St Andrew for Scotland and Ireland can keep St Patrick.

[peter birch]

The UK awaits a modern-day St. Patrick to come and drive all of the 24AW's out of the band halls...

It amuses me that the Americans seem to have so little regard for this classic American mouthpiece - while over the pond in England it is the most popular tuba mouthpiece and not just in band rooms, but music conservatoire's, and concert halls too...

Maybe the Americans don't like it because we do...

[fairweathertuba]

It seems as if the 24AW has filled a specific niche in the tuba playing world, at least the UK world that is.

Like many a young lad, my first mp was a 24aw that I chucked out into the woods behind my parents house after a year or so of agony with it.

However I can understand the need for a mp that doesn't wear the chops out with continuous playing, which is the main reason I use a smallish feeling Blessing 18. Feels a lot smaller than the Bach 18, also it has a wider more comfortable rim than the Bach, but not crazy wide and fat like a 24aw.

Funny thing is after 35 years of not having a 24AW I'd kind of like to try one again. This very thread is making want to try one!

One more thing, I remember some bloke (not "bloke", but some bloke) possibly a bloke from the UK who had a spreadsheet with the specifications listed for quite a variety of mp's. Anyone have a link for that webpage with the spreadsheet?

[PMeuph]

............The father of the tuba Harvey Philips........

How is Harvey Philips the "father of the tuba?" ....


I always though it was Bell who had that title....

[PMeuph]

This is the ONLY man who could POSSIBLY father a tuba...

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=15426" target="_blank

[Art Hovey]

Harvey Philips, there is a great story about how when he first started out as a professional he forgot his mouthpiece for a gig at a high school. The story goes he went to the band director and he handed Harvey a 24 aw. Harvey went on to play the show and all went well. Ever since then Harvey always used a 24 aw because, in his words, he would always be able to find one when needed in any high school across America.

I am afraid you are mistaken about that. It was a Conn mouthpiece that Harvey borrowed after breaking his special bakelite mpc, and it was a Conn that he used for the rest of his career because he knew he could find one in every high school. Look at any photo of Harvey playing.

He told me that story himself, after trying one of my plastic mouthpieces.

[modelerdc]

Harvey settled on the Conn 2, a nice mouthpiece close in size and characteristics to the Helleberg 7B. He said one reason for chosing this mouthpiece is that he could find one anywhere should his get lost. I have one, typical flat Conn rim with a well defined inner edge, funnel style cup, a good mpc for those who don't require a really big one.

[fairweathertuba]

So, the guys in the top brass bands really use 24AW's? And Chuck Norris, what does he use?

[tuba-tobias]

And Chuck Norris, what does he use?

24AWig

[Wyvern]

So, the guys in the top brass bands really use 24AW's?

A lot do and probably the majority of orchestral pros too. In fact I would go so far as to say the 24AW almost defines the British tuba sound

[MikeW]

So, the guys in the top brass bands really use 24AW's?

A lot do and probably the majority of orchestral pros too. In fact I would go so far as to say the 24AW almost defines the British tuba sound

That would explain why instrument shops in ex-pat British enclaves stock the Vincent Bach 24AW with the old B&H/Besson small European shank (it has a B stamped on the shank): When I needed a mouthpiece in a hurry, they pulled one right off the shelf - shame really, I was looking for a small Denis Wick (4 or 5).

Oh well, any port in a storm, but with hindsight, the 24AW is a tad over-powered for a Besson 2-20 three-banger 2/4 size Eb (long story short: I was stranded away from home at the time, and short of both tuba and cash). Now the dust has settled, it works fairly well on my Imperial Eb, but I seem to be getting a more pleasing sound from a DW3.

[PhilGreen]

So, the guys in the top brass bands really use 24AW's?

Some do, in-fact lots do but not all.

My old section at Fodens used to play on 24AW, 24AW, Bach 18, Bach 7

Some of the finest BBb players also used 24AWs to get the mellifluous BBb pedal sound required in the top bands (like dry ice falling off the stage was the way one top player described it to me).
Many use Wick 2s, more are starting to use the 3 (some based on the knowledge it's designed to be like a 24AW). PTxx mps are starting to become more popular, mostly amongst college students where they have to play in more things than bands.A fellow board member and player of fantastic banding pedigree uses an M Finn mp. He makes a great sound and uses BBb in smaller groups too, blending really well - although he does play bass trombone so I'm not sure you could count him as a proper player Sorry Andy.

In 1988 I flirted with a Schilke 67 and a PT90 in some serious banding action but neither helped, in fact exactly the opposite, me to blend with the rest of the section so exotic mps have been around here in the UK for a long time but in the banding world have never taken off.

Perhaps the blending is the main reason the 24AW is so popular. In a banding bass section we need to provide a sound more akin to that of an organ pedal than the lower range of a grand piano - same octave but totally different timbre - to fit in with the mainly conical instrumentation. In an orchestra we're either with the cylindrical trombones or the (cylindrical) horns so the fat organ sound isn't suitable here; in a brass quintet the difference in sound requirement is even more marked.

Personally I don't believe that there is a better brass band orientated mouthpiece than the 24AW but can understand why it doesn't work for lots of other people in different ensembles.

I'm very much looking forward to trying out the Imperial + #2 in quintet, 10 piece and orchestra over the next 4/5 weeks - was asked to play with Grimethorpe on Saturday but have an orchestral workshop with young kids to do - on Dvorak New World Symphony. I wonder what mouthpiece is best for those 8(?) notes? Oooh, I can feel another thread coming on.......

[modelerdc]

The Conn 2 or Conn 7B would be closer to a Laskey 28H, would be about like a 26H if he made one. For most of what Phillips did, brass quintet, solos, great mouthpieces.

[Peach]

Harvey settled on the Conn 2, a nice mouthpiece close in size and characteristics to the Helleberg 7B. He said one reason for chosing this mouthpiece is that he could find one anywhere should his get lost. I have one, typical flat Conn rim with a well defined inner edge, funnel style cup, a good mpc for those who don't require a really big one.

Conn 2/7B is an OK mouthpiece...' not terribly dissimilar to the Laskey 30H. ' not my favorite, but easily qualifies as "a mouthpiece that works".

Also, I believe, the 7B was used by John Fletcher more than is given credit for on the Eb.
Anyone know the story about Jacobs sending Fletcher a Helleberg or two to use - presumably for the Holton C?

24AW's work great for a lot of players over here but I can see if folks grow up used to quite different designs, it might seem like a strange choice.
I've just switched on Eb from a shallow piece to a much deeper one with a pretty large throat (ie. quite 24AW-esque in those regards), but with a narrower rim and a wider opening internal diameter.

[modelerdc]

The one time I meet Fletcher, in 1980 as I recall he was still using a 24AW, asked why he said it was the largest mpc he could find in Britain at the time he started playing tuba. Slightly off topic asked why he used an E flat, he said when he started tuba (from horn!) he had a good E flat but did not have a good F! At some point in time, don't know the year, he meet with some of the brass players from the Chicago symphony. I'm telling this story 2nd hand, so bear that in mind, stories sometimes morph with retelling. Anyway by this time Fletcher was using a Holton CC when he thought it was appropriate. He mention to Jacobs that he felt that he hadn't found the mpc that really worke the best with his Holton CC. Jacobs had Fletcher try a Vintage Conn Helleberg (not the same as either the Current Helleberg or the 7B) Fletcher quickly found it worked better on the CC and when He tried to return it to Jacobs, Jacobs said to keep it, he had several like it. At this point Jay Friedman, who was present, said something like aren't you the lucky boy! So this became the lucky boy mpc, which I recall was the basis for one of the Wick mpcs, the 2L if it remember. On youtube you can find some videos done for British television with Fletcher as soloist. The mpc he using looks like a Conn 2. So, it's well known that Fletcher established himself as a world class player with a 24AW on a Besson E flat, but it's also known that he played, in additon to E flat, CC and F tubas and used other mpcs, at least later on.