"cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

[J.c. Sherman]

3...

[PaulMaybery]

"Terminology" vs "Organology." The bain of the musicologist. So what then is "The Point"? Or should we as tubaist just order a "Pint" and be done with it?

Verdi eventually got what he wanted. So should we. Pilsner Urquel for starters for me or how 'bout a jug of Carlo Ross "Paisano." Goes down well before, during, after or even without dinner.

I think if Verdi had heard a certain Eb Besson recording bell in the pit, non of this would even be spoken of today.

[Steve Marcus]

We're now in the 21st century and bigger is not necessarily better. Hopefully time and taste will weed out which designs produce a sound that's effective for our needs.

Regardless of what one wants to hear or play, the cimbasso is here to stay. As players we might use a smaller tuba in the studio then we would for a Bruckner symphony. It's logical to assume that a player may want a steroid cimbasso by a modern work or a studio gig but choose for a smaller bore cimbasso when playing Verdi.

Right now, we are the ones making the rules. I say lets give the cimbassophiles their civil rights and kill this troll once and for all.

Beyond the historical and musicological consideration, playing cimbasso can actually be enjoyable. Just ask Beth Mitchell and others who have made cimbasso part of their arsenals.

[The Big Ben]

All those old instruments are irrelevant. This is like the thread on bringing back the ophicleide into the modern orchestra - there's a reason why we don't see old designs used regularly... Hence why bloke probably won't find a photograph like the picture posted.

I blame the 1960-80s generations for all the loud music and louder music that has caused the older instruments, like the ophicleide, to be replaced by louder versions to accommodate for the new generation of people with hearing problems...

"It's all those damn hippies..."

[timothy42b]

I can't remember if this guy posts on this forum or not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M38qRaNloBQ" target="_blank

I haven't heard too many contras, I thought this was an interesting sound.

I knew I'd dragged my kids to too many concerts when I heard one of them humming the overture to Nabucco on the playground.

[hup_d_dup]

. . . so many tuba players insist on labeling a contrabass valve trombone a "cimbasso" . . . |

No more weird names or crazy shapes. Build it in the shape of an Eb tuba and call it a Bass Trombonium.

(OK maybe that's a slightly odd name too, but it does have historical precedent AND it is accurately descriptive)

Hup

[UDELBR]

Build it in the shape of an Eb tuba and call it a Bass Trombonium.

(OK maybe that's a slightly odd name too, but it does have historical precedent AND it is accurately descriptive)

Hup

Maybe I'm not getting the joke. A tuba is a conical instrument, and a trombone of any sort is a cylindrical instrument. Different bore profile, thus, not "accurately descriptive".

[hup_d_dup]

Maybe I'm not getting the joke. A tuba is a conical instrument, and a trombone of any sort is a cylindrical instrument. Different bore profile, thus, not "accurately descriptive".

By "shape" I mean "wrap," like a euphonium wrap. A cimbasso has a cylindrical bore. Make a cylindrical bore instrument with the wrap of an Eb tuba. Call it a bass trombonium (You certainly wouldn't call it a tuba).

This isn't my idea . . . it's already been done . . . but the instruments are usually called "cimbassos" even though they are not in the shape (that is to say, wrap) of a cimbasso.

Hup

[Donn]

I bet a quarter that somewhere in Klaus' archives, you could find old cimbassos, labeled as such, in that top valve Eb shape. I think Orsi made one like that, but sadly, according to my vague memory it had only 3 valves, which sort of disqualifies it in this category.

[UDELBR]

The whole reason that he reportedly disliked the bombardoni was because they sounded harsh or "hoarse"...Is anyone here going to take up the argument that a modern full-board tuba sound, typically, is "harsh/hoarse" whereas the sound of a modern-day full-board contrabass valve trombone sound is "pretty/smooth"...??

Verdi objected to the tuba because it didn't "blend with the others". In his own words:

“I wish to insist again on a fourth trombone. I would prefer a trombone basso which is one of the same family as the others. If this turns out to be too much trouble and is too difficult to play, then get again one of those ordinary ophicleides that go down to the low B. In fact, use anything you like, but not that devil of a tuba which does not blend with the others!”

I would also wager the "wooden thing with holes and metal bell" didn't blend awfully well with the trombones. Thus, the contrabass valve trombone.

Edit: this link seems to provide a pretty credible account of the cimbasso's development: http://jscottirvine.com/little-backgrou ... trombones/" target="_blank

[UDELBR]

...as we continue to go around in circles...
...no physical evidence from that period of anything other than extra-long slide trombone things

As the link says, Verdi firmly decided in favor of the valve contrabass trombone in 1881. This was his own decision, and not that of some know-it-all after Verdi's death. This, in contrast to Berlioz' current 'helpers' who've apparently decided that Dies Irae really, really needs to be played two octaves down, despite the composer's express wishes.

[imperialbari]

The technical problems in creating a bass valve trombone, when the tenor valve trombones was already invented and in use in the Italian opera orchestras would have been manageable with period materials and period tools. Without being anything like a specialist in Italian opera, I still have heard about a conservating factor, which may have delayed the introduction of the more efficient valved bass trombone in the Italian opera houses.

There exists correspondence between Verdi and managers of Italian opera house, from around 1843 I seem to remember, where the managers plead their case for a standard opera orchestration, so that the managers could keep steady orchestra sizes.

I took a look at the scores of Verdi’s 2 last operas, Otello and Falstaff. Both scores specify Trombone Basso as their bottom instrument of the brass section. The Otello opening implies valve trombones being meant.

If my eyes allowed so, I would look at more of Verdi’s scores and possibly also scores by other period composers to see when the lowest brass part was renamed from Cimbasso to Trombone Basso. And then I suspect there must have been a late 19th century convention within the Italian opera sphere, which said that Cimbasso parts were performed on valved bass trombones right from when the swap between the two instruments was agreed upon.

That may account for the oddity that the name of a wooden instrument was transferred to an instrument, which technically is a valved bass trombone.

As for playing in close quarters back then: During the years while Verdi was active as a composer not even La Scala in Milan had an orchestra pit. The orchestra sat on the same level as the public in the Parterre. Alloin one big flat floor. Not even screens as dividers between the musicians and the public.

Klaus

[Donn]

...to date, no one has shown me a photograph of one (much less "some") that were made during-or-before the time period that those pieces of music were written that requested a "cimbasso".

Maybe Verdi kept them so busy, that the instruments were all used to death and none survived to be collectors' items.

I took a look at the scores of Verdi’s 2 last operas, Otello and Falstaff. Both scores specify Trombone Basso as their bottom instrument of the brass section. The Otello opening implies valve trombones being meant.

OK...so not "cimbasso", and it isn't immediately apparent (at least, not to me) why valves would be "implied", but (again) not cimbasso-related, but tangential.

Check for something like "Non preoccuparti troppo se non esattamente en accordo, il resto della sezione sono stesso tromboni a valvole."

[TheTuba]

All those old instruments are irrelevant. This is like the thread on bringing back the ophicleide into the modern orchestra - there's a reason why we don't see old designs used regularly... Hence why bloke probably won't find a photograph like the picture posted.

I blame the 1960-80s generations for all the loud music and louder music that has caused the older instruments, like the ophicleide, to be replaced by louder versions to accommodate for the new generation of people with hearing problems...

+1 "I heard that"

barely