Tuba as a jazz instrument?

[ArnoldGottlieb]

Yeah,
Vince is great.
And I attempted to raise the same question about jazz before, what is it?
Peace.
ASG

[ArnoldGottlieb]

I must be sick. I need a beer.

Doc

I feel fine. I need a beer.
ASG

ps, really trying to answer scooby's question but beer is more fun

[ken k]

what is jazz?

Yogi Berra's Explanation of Jazz

Interviewer: Can you explain jazz?

Yogi: I can't, but I will. 90% of all jazz is half improvisation

The other half is the part people play while others are playing

something they never played with anyone who played that part. So if you play the

wrong part, its right. If you play the right part, it might be right if

you play it wrong enough. But if you play it too right, it's

wrong.


Interviewer: I don't understand.

Yogi: Anyone who understands jazz knows that you can't understand

it. It's too complicated. That's what's so simple about it.


Interviewer: Do you understand it?

Yogi: No. That's why I can explain it. If I understood it, I wouldn't

know anything about it.

Interviewer: Are there any great jazz player alive today?

Yogi: No. All the great jazz players alive today are dead. Except for

the ones that are still alive. But so many of them are dead, that

the ones that are still alive are dying to be like the ones that are dead.

Interviewer: What is syncopation?

Yogi: That's when the note that you should hear now happens either

before or after you hear it. In jazz, you don't hear notes when

they happen because that would be some other type of music. Other

types of music can be jazz, but only if they're the same as something

different from those other kinds.

Interviewer: Now I really don't understand.

Yogi: I haven't taught you enough for you to not understand jazz

that well.

ken "sorry to take this thread off topic, but I could resist using this old joke" k

[tubajoe]

A few years ago there was a long panel discussion on this exact subject on TubaNews.com. I was fortunate enough to be on that panel, but the article is not up there anymore. I found a draft of my contribution, here is an excerpt (slightly updated), I thought it would be applicable here... good thread, BTW.

(PS - I try to avoid the term "jazzer", while I do play one on TV, I like to think I'm just as at home hokin Tchaik with a section...)

Panel question:
Instruments like the sax and trumpet seem to have established themselves
as the "accepted" jazz solo instruments. There must be a reason for this.
What is your take on this statement, and how do you view the tuba as a solo
instrument in a jazz setting?

Response:
Sax and Trumpet, as instruments, are mainly established because of the (sometimes unfortunate) historical emphasis in jazz. Many mainstream “jazz” musicians are extremely traditional and academic and believe that for something to be real “jazz” it has to fit into a certain historical mold, and that someone has to have already set some precedent beforehand. It seems that be-bop has become the traditional mold for much mainstream jazz, and since that era did not include any tuba luminaries, then the tuba must not belong… right? Wrong! We all know better!!

The tuba is a very young instrument. We are only 2 or 3 generations into the life of the tuba where there are people who can play the thing at a high level. When jazz was in its heyday, there were not any tuba players around that were able or willing to push it in that environment (or that got noticed anyway) ...the way that sax, trumpet, trombone, and piano players did.

As for it being a solo instrument in a jazz situation, I think ANY instrument can be a solo instrument in ANY type of music!!


Panel question:
What are the specific challenges you see tubists facing as jazz
soloists, and what skills must a tubist develop to overcome these
challenges?

Response:
The first challenge is overcoming historical presumption and general public opinion of the tuba. Simply put, most folks (outside of our tubaworld) don’t know how the tuba really can sound!! As tubists we have a responsibility to SHOW the world how great the tuba can sound and what it is capable of (and this includes avoiding the typical schtick etc) and that it is indeed a serious musical instrument with unique and beautiful characteristics, not just fodder for comic strips.

The next challenge is that of jazz traditions (and traditionalists) which are trying to relive a bygone era and choose to exclude the tuba. You can play their tunes if you want, as some of them are nice, but honestly the compulsories in jazz irritate me. To apply the logic of compulsories to other genres shows just how ludicrous it is: Imagine that a rock band MUST play a required amount of Beatles and Zepplin tunes before considering themselves "real" rock musicians.

The final challenge is SONICS. The sound of the tuba takes up lots of space. Some players deal with this by soloing in a very high range where it can be heard over a traditional rhythm section, and often playing it on a much smaller horn. Personally, I think that the tuba’s big, fat, round, heavy, low, consuming, pounding, wonderful, flowing sound is its BEST asset and is the exact and specific thing that makes us unique. It has sonic characteristics that NO other instrument possesses. I feel that playing everything higher and/or on a smaller instrument is too much of a sacrifice for me. I love huge sounds that vibrate your soul. I like to operate in a situation or setting where I can “let the tuba be the tuba”.

Choosing the right instrumentation and players are key. A standard jazz combo (bass, pno, drums) is NOT an ensemble that works for me. The bass gets in the way of the range I like to play in (and the range that I think the tuba sounds best in). When soloing/improvising I like to be in a situation where there is no other bass and I am in control of what happens in that range – so there is nothing to compete with!

It is all about creating something new. As tuba players we are at an EXTRAORDINARY place in time. Most people don’t really know what we can do and I believe that they DO want to find out. The slate is clean!

-------
I'd like to get something together - like a Handel, Bach, Muddy Waters flamenco type of thing...if I could get that sound, I'd be happy.
-Jimi Hendrix
-------
Jazz is not dead, it just smells funny.
-Frank Zappa
-------
Dont play whats there, play whats not there.

Those people who say theres no music but bop are just stupid; it shows how much they dont know.

If anybody wants to keep creating they have to be about change.
-Miles Davis

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Honestly, Scoob, I don't understand the point.

I can play the crap out of Parker heads, even hold my own improvising over bebop changes. I do find that the nature of the beast (tuba) keeps me from playing the same kind of angular lines I use on, say, piano. The only time I ever played "out front" of a combo was the ITEC jazz competition, and that was fun but felt really weird.

That being said, I wouldn't particularly expect more than a very, very small percentage of the population in general to "get" a lead jazz tubist any more that I would expect them to "get" a tuba soloist in any other genre. Face it, it ain't gonna be popular with the folks, no matter how good the player is. Was that the point?

[circusboy]

Excellent post, Scoob, and questions that I've been asking on my own for a while.

Much as I enjoy listening to Bob Stewart or Sam Pilafian, I don't think of them as jazz leads in the same way I think of the many icons mentioned (plus younger (or at least living) players like Greg Osby, Chris Potter, Charnette Moffet, Roy Hargrove, etc.).

I don't think a lead-jazz tubist has appeared yet.

Let's face it, even string bass players don't get the leads like their sax, piano, trumpet playing counterparts. This isn't about household-name status or some other type of market-driven recognition; it's about these two things (I think):

1. Very low note playing instruments are just not as nimble. It takes more time for low notes to sound. It's hard to be very dazzling, as a result.
2. I'm not sure whether it's cultural or biological, but the music listening public isn't attuned to listening in that low range.

And I completely agree with the article above that rails at tubists who 'cheat' by playing in the high range and on smaller instruments. That doesn't cut it for me. Might as well play trombone--which has been only moderately more successful in the jazz idiom.

To me, the main component of jazz is improvisation. Where are the great tuba improvisors?

I've sometimes fancied myself as someone who'd figure out how to find the new, jazz sound on a tuba. Hasn't happened.

It's certainly not straight-ahead jazz, but if you haven't yet given a listen to William Roper or Oren Marshall, I'd recommend it.

[dougtuba]

I was very interested to come across this thread having just released a jazz tuba album (entitled Buckhorn Morning) where I do a lot of lead playing and improv. I would certainly agree that the tuba is not as nimble as some of our smaller counterparts. Sometimes I felt like a Hercules transport plane trying to do barrel rolls with a squadron of F18's. However, the tuba has a uniquely beautiful sound that deserves to be heard in a jazz setting.

I also think that you make an interesting point about players "cheating" by playing in the high register on a small instrument. I guess my main concern there is that while you gain dexterity you lose some of the characteristic fullness of the tuba's sound if you are playing on a peashooter. In my case I do a fair bit of high register playing but using a larger CC tuba (a B&S 606P) so I'll leave it to others to decide if I'm cheating or not.

[Toobist]

Hi Doug!

I've spent the last few days listening to your CD. Thanks so much for that!

I've been playing it for several of my musician friends (a couple of jazzers in the mix) and they are all in agreement - you're a phenomenal jazz musician! There's such a natural feel to your lines and fluency in your melodic choices that there's no question as to whether you're a just tuba player who plays jazz or a jazz musician who happens to play tuba. You are certainly the latter! While I love your tuba playing, of course, you're a true jazz musician.

I urge everyone to get a copy of Doug's CD. Not just because we wanna hear a great tubist, but because it's truly a wonderful jazz CD.

By the way, if you are to look at the members of the band on the CD and you're familiar with the 'who's who' in the scene in and around Toronto, you'll see proof that our upper crust jazz artists take Doug seriously as a jazz musician as well.

Bravo Doug!

[tubajazzo]

Hi Doug,
nice to see this old thread again with a new jazz tuba album announced. I hope it will be available in Europe too?
Another question about "cheating with small instruments": Is Oystein "cheating" because he plays a smaller Eb-tuba?
Tubas are different from small to big, and anyone can choose what he or she likes and suites best for the musical context, be it classic or jazz.

Happy Christmas to everyone!
Gerd

[dougtuba]

Hi Doug,
nice to see this old thread again with a new jazz tuba album announced. I hope it will be available in Europe too?
Another question about "cheating with small instruments": Is Oystein "cheating" because he plays a smaller Eb-tuba?
Tubas are different from small to big, and anyone can choose what he or she likes and suites best for the musical context, be it classic or jazz.

Happy Christmas to everyone!
Gerd

To Al. thanks for your kind words!

Hi Gerd,
Thanks for your interest in my cd! It should be available worldwide through iTunes and CDBaby. I have links on my website at http://www.dougburrell.ca.

Re: Oystein "cheating" I say absolutely not. Oystein makes no musical compromises in his playing at all with no sacrifice of tone for velocity and taking maximum advantage of the capabilities of his instrument. The results are stunningly beautiful.
Re: Tubajason's comment

What needs to change is peoples stuffiness about what is a jazz instrument and what is not.

I couldn't agree more. We need to stop letting others define what musical roles the tuba can or cannot play.
Merry Christmas to All!
Doug

[TCtubaKingConn00]

well i just did a research paper on jazz and

tuba was used in early jazz because of its POWERFUL volume.

so yeah you could play tuba in modern jazz if you want it will just sound a little different

[Walter Webb]

Joe Murphy makes it sound light and nimble!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZwZJONDPqE&NR=1" target="_blank

[Ian Stewart]

The Be Bop vocabulary was developed by an alto saxophone player and trumpeter, and is ideally suited to those instruments. However it does not really suit the guitar of piano as well, even though there are great Be Bop players on those instruments.
As someone who used to be interested in jazz, I have noticed that Be Bop seems to be the benchmark for jazz playing, however I prefer non-Be Bop styles over Be Bop; and I must add, so do most listeners.

So to answer your question, the wonderful tuba parts in Ernie Wilkins' big band arrangements, or the two tubas in the arrangements of Gil Evans show that the tuba is an indispensable jazz instrument, even if it can't play John Coltrane transcriptions as well as a saxophone. Styles are often defined by great players: Parker on alto saxophone; Garbarek on tenor saxophone, Errol Garner on piano et al. All it needs is a tuba player to define a style unique to tuba and everyone will be imitating the tuba.

[dougtuba]

Joe Murphy makes it sound light and nimble!

I think that Joe is an outstanding artist who deserves a lot of credit for promoting the tuba as a jazz instrument and not allowing himself to be limited by other people's perceptions of what the role of the tuba should be.

[J Stowe]

Please don't hit me with stones for this comment..

I'm willing to bet that if a tubist could also sing like Chet Baker or Louis Armstrong, he'd make a great appeal to audiences. This could possibly a combo that rotates roles, which would be very interesting.

[dershem]

I'm still surprised that nobody has mentioned Rich Matteson. He did some amazing stuff.
And Bill Reichenbach has done some very nice things, including a very good solo on "You put What in the sousaphone?"
Jazz tuba is rare, but can be done. The trick is getting the rest of the band to put up with it.

[Walter Webb]

There's something about the wavelength of contrabass tones that is so long that the audience can't wait for it to arrive at their ears; with so many molecules of vibrating air slowly wafting in their direction. Soprano, alto and tenor saxes, trumpets, and 'bones deliver the tones instantly into their face. But go an octave or two lower, and the average listener cannot even hear the articulation, much less the melody which is programmed into our brains to be delivered by the top line. On the other hand, novelty is desirable. There is room in this world for a few cream of the crop tubists to assume coolness. Everyone has heard a million saxes and trumpets blasting the lead, and it's old hat by now. When a tuba does it nicely, they will listen, if only to hear the bellowing elephant sing. 'Tis charming to hear a rhinocerous crying out it's song of love, and having an elephantine orgasm at just the right moment. Large beasts quiver with delight, too.
http://www.elinewberger.com/" target="_blank

[Paul Tkachenko]

Hi folks,

Just wanted to chip in that I make a pretty decent living playing jazz tuba (quite a bit of trad often on the sousa, to be fair) as well as various 'World' music styles (such as Balkan stuff on the helicon).

I'll be recording a CD in the not too distant future with my trio, which is tuba, banjo/ukulele/guitar and drum kit. I'll let you all know and you can see if it works or not. There are quite a lot of 'Eastern' influences on the jazz.

As you might expect, I also double on upright, which helps bring in a bit of money and also informs my jazz tuba playing greatly.

[Paul Tkachenko]

For the record ... Joe M is doing a great job!

[dougtuba]

Hi folks,

Just wanted to chip in that I make a pretty decent living playing jazz tuba (quite a bit of trad often on the sousa, to be fair) as well as various 'World' music styles (such as Balkan stuff on the helicon).

I'll be recording a CD in the not too distant future with my trio, which is tuba, banjo/ukulele/guitar and drum kit. I'll let you all know and you can see if it works or not. There are quite a lot of 'Eastern' influences on the jazz.

As you might expect, I also double on upright, which helps bring in a bit of money and also informs my jazz tuba playing greatly.

Hi Paul, Nice to hear that you're getting so much work playing jazz! Like you, most of the work that I do is also playing jazz, anything from dixieland to big band jazz, although I am classically trained so I would tend to agree with bloke's post.

Have fun recording the cd! We'll look forward to hearing the results. My recent jazz tuba project took about 15 months from beginning to write the tunes until the album release but the journey was wonderful.
Doug