24AW - in praise of

[fairweathertuba]

So, the guys in the top brass bands really use 24AW's? And Chuck Norris, what does he use?

[tuba-tobias]

And Chuck Norris, what does he use?

24AWig

[Wyvern]

So, the guys in the top brass bands really use 24AW's?

A lot do and probably the majority of orchestral pros too. In fact I would go so far as to say the 24AW almost defines the British tuba sound

[MikeW]

So, the guys in the top brass bands really use 24AW's?

A lot do and probably the majority of orchestral pros too. In fact I would go so far as to say the 24AW almost defines the British tuba sound

That would explain why instrument shops in ex-pat British enclaves stock the Vincent Bach 24AW with the old B&H/Besson small European shank (it has a B stamped on the shank): When I needed a mouthpiece in a hurry, they pulled one right off the shelf - shame really, I was looking for a small Denis Wick (4 or 5).

Oh well, any port in a storm, but with hindsight, the 24AW is a tad over-powered for a Besson 2-20 three-banger 2/4 size Eb (long story short: I was stranded away from home at the time, and short of both tuba and cash). Now the dust has settled, it works fairly well on my Imperial Eb, but I seem to be getting a more pleasing sound from a DW3.

[PhilGreen]

So, the guys in the top brass bands really use 24AW's?

Some do, in-fact lots do but not all.

My old section at Fodens used to play on 24AW, 24AW, Bach 18, Bach 7

Some of the finest BBb players also used 24AWs to get the mellifluous BBb pedal sound required in the top bands (like dry ice falling off the stage was the way one top player described it to me).
Many use Wick 2s, more are starting to use the 3 (some based on the knowledge it's designed to be like a 24AW). PTxx mps are starting to become more popular, mostly amongst college students where they have to play in more things than bands.A fellow board member and player of fantastic banding pedigree uses an M Finn mp. He makes a great sound and uses BBb in smaller groups too, blending really well - although he does play bass trombone so I'm not sure you could count him as a proper player Sorry Andy.

In 1988 I flirted with a Schilke 67 and a PT90 in some serious banding action but neither helped, in fact exactly the opposite, me to blend with the rest of the section so exotic mps have been around here in the UK for a long time but in the banding world have never taken off.

Perhaps the blending is the main reason the 24AW is so popular. In a banding bass section we need to provide a sound more akin to that of an organ pedal than the lower range of a grand piano - same octave but totally different timbre - to fit in with the mainly conical instrumentation. In an orchestra we're either with the cylindrical trombones or the (cylindrical) horns so the fat organ sound isn't suitable here; in a brass quintet the difference in sound requirement is even more marked.

Personally I don't believe that there is a better brass band orientated mouthpiece than the 24AW but can understand why it doesn't work for lots of other people in different ensembles.

I'm very much looking forward to trying out the Imperial + #2 in quintet, 10 piece and orchestra over the next 4/5 weeks - was asked to play with Grimethorpe on Saturday but have an orchestral workshop with young kids to do - on Dvorak New World Symphony. I wonder what mouthpiece is best for those 8(?) notes? Oooh, I can feel another thread coming on.......

[modelerdc]

The Conn 2 or Conn 7B would be closer to a Laskey 28H, would be about like a 26H if he made one. For most of what Phillips did, brass quintet, solos, great mouthpieces.

[Peach]

Harvey settled on the Conn 2, a nice mouthpiece close in size and characteristics to the Helleberg 7B. He said one reason for chosing this mouthpiece is that he could find one anywhere should his get lost. I have one, typical flat Conn rim with a well defined inner edge, funnel style cup, a good mpc for those who don't require a really big one.

Conn 2/7B is an OK mouthpiece...' not terribly dissimilar to the Laskey 30H. ' not my favorite, but easily qualifies as "a mouthpiece that works".

Also, I believe, the 7B was used by John Fletcher more than is given credit for on the Eb.
Anyone know the story about Jacobs sending Fletcher a Helleberg or two to use - presumably for the Holton C?

24AW's work great for a lot of players over here but I can see if folks grow up used to quite different designs, it might seem like a strange choice.
I've just switched on Eb from a shallow piece to a much deeper one with a pretty large throat (ie. quite 24AW-esque in those regards), but with a narrower rim and a wider opening internal diameter.

[modelerdc]

The one time I meet Fletcher, in 1980 as I recall he was still using a 24AW, asked why he said it was the largest mpc he could find in Britain at the time he started playing tuba. Slightly off topic asked why he used an E flat, he said when he started tuba (from horn!) he had a good E flat but did not have a good F! At some point in time, don't know the year, he meet with some of the brass players from the Chicago symphony. I'm telling this story 2nd hand, so bear that in mind, stories sometimes morph with retelling. Anyway by this time Fletcher was using a Holton CC when he thought it was appropriate. He mention to Jacobs that he felt that he hadn't found the mpc that really worke the best with his Holton CC. Jacobs had Fletcher try a Vintage Conn Helleberg (not the same as either the Current Helleberg or the 7B) Fletcher quickly found it worked better on the CC and when He tried to return it to Jacobs, Jacobs said to keep it, he had several like it. At this point Jay Friedman, who was present, said something like aren't you the lucky boy! So this became the lucky boy mpc, which I recall was the basis for one of the Wick mpcs, the 2L if it remember. On youtube you can find some videos done for British television with Fletcher as soloist. The mpc he using looks like a Conn 2. So, it's well known that Fletcher established himself as a world class player with a 24AW on a Besson E flat, but it's also known that he played, in additon to E flat, CC and F tubas and used other mpcs, at least later on.

[euphomate]

Just as an aside. Yamaha supply one of their 66D4's with some of the tubas they produce as the stock mp. One came with a YEB321 I bought quite some years back. It looks like a copy of a VB 24AW, but I notice it is a tad wider in the cup, according to Yamaha specs, than the 24AW. Has anyone ever compared these two pieces with each other? Does the 66D4 sound/feel/react the same as a 24AW, or is there some subtle difference between the two. You can usually pick up a Yamaha mp cheaper than a Bach, and certainly a Wick.

[MikeW]

One more thing, I remember some bloke (not "bloke", but some bloke) possibly a bloke from the UK who had a spreadsheet with the specifications listed for quite a variety of mp's. Anyone have a link for that webpage with the spreadsheet?

Possibly this: http://www.dwerden.com/mouthpieces/tuba.cfm
That link was ok before I posted this (I checked) but it is now broken

[Lectron]

So, the guys in the top brass bands really use 24AW's?

A lot do and probably the majority of orchestral pros too. In fact I would go so far as to say the 24AW almost defines the British tuba sound

My experience with the compensating tubas is that I prefer them with a large bore MP
Another thing thou...I don't really feel the MP contribute that much playing the compensating ones.
Funny as I feel In need to 'shape' the tone much more in my mouth, having a large resonant chamber
than playing a larger bore rotary valve where I'm much more picky about the MP.

[peter birch]

One more thing, I remember some bloke (not "bloke", but some bloke) possibly a bloke from the UK who had a spreadsheet with the specifications listed for quite a variety of mp's. Anyone have a link for that webpage with the spreadsheet?

Possibly this: http://www.dwerden.com/mouthpieces/tuba.cfm

It could be Andycat, although I can't find it at the moment

[AndyCat]

One more thing, I remember some bloke (not "bloke", but some bloke) possibly a bloke from the UK who had a spreadsheet with the specifications listed for quite a variety of mp's. Anyone have a link for that webpage with the spreadsheet?

Possibly this: http://www.dwerden.com/mouthpieces/tuba.cfm

It could be Andycat, although I can't find it at the moment

It was, and I've made it available here, although it isn't up to date!:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/23088415/TubaMo ... isons2.xls

[sousaphone68]

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=48245&p=416694&hili ... df#p416694" target="_blank

Link above to a post from Imperiali with a PDF showing how DW pieces compare to their similar rivals

[peter birch]

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=48245&p=416694&hili ... df#p416694" target="_blank

Link above to a post from Imperiali with a PDF showing how DW pieces compare to their similar rivals

This is really interesting and enlightening to read, but I'm not sure that it is an entirely unbiased account of the Denis Wick mouthpieces

[MikeW]

One more thing, I remember some bloke (not "bloke", but some bloke) possibly a bloke from the UK who had a spreadsheet with the specifications listed for quite a variety of mp's. Anyone have a link for that webpage with the spreadsheet?

Possibly this: http://www.dwerden.com/mouthpieces/tuba.cfm
That link was ok before I posted this (I checked) but it is now broken
It's back up now

[PaulTkachenko]

What's Bloke's take on the 66D4? I use one for my Eb and it's great. Would I be better off with that instead of my 24AW - I'm going to try it obviously.

This was playing on my mind on tonight's gig.

[Three Valves]

The inner diameter is too small.
The rim is too wide.
The throat is too large.

Seems like it might work OK on those "resistance filled" compensating E flat tubas.

That's exactly what I thought.

But nothing SOUNDS better in my JBB-210L MackBrunner.

Yet.

[Three Valves]

The Kelly 24AW in Lexan feels a little wider. (Internal diameter)

And the rim a little less wide.

Feels great, sounds great.

Now I want to try one in stainless!!

[Wyvern]

Wessex Tubas will soon have in stock the MOUNT VERNON 24AW. This is an exact reproduction of this iconic mouthpiece.

I have compared against Bach 24AW and think the Mount Vernon is the better with richer tone.