What Happened to Being a Musician?

[TubaRay]

Students couldn't spell their way out of a paper bag, even the average college kid. They write like they talk. I guess they never knew that Hooked On Phonics bore no resemblance to the real words people expect you to know.

One needs only to read many of the posts on TubeNet to see how true this is.

[windshieldbug]

It seems that whenever I log into this board someone is either asking for a transposition or a transcription of a part.

Whenever I do a Balinese gamelon piece, I NEED a transcription. I'm good, but not that good...

[Dan Schultz]

Another of my posts with a rhetorical question.

The subject line and your first question leads to lots more questions. I'm wondering what your definition of 'musician' is.

Can't I consider myself a musician without spending my time doing transpositions? Do I have to know all of the major, minor, and whatever scales and practice them daily to consider myself a musician? ..... or can I simply enjoy playing music?

I preside over a rather successful community band. The Board of Directors doesn't even begin to define what the term 'to play' means. Is there really a positive definition? I'ld like to hear your definition.

[windshieldbug]

I'm wondering what your definition of 'musician' is.

To paraphrase the "funniest joke ever told":
Der ver two peanuts valking down de strasse.
Eins vas a musician.
Die oder von didn't have any money, eider.

[sloan]

I truly believe, as just one other example of something similar, that the age of the great mathematicians is in our past - as mathematicians now punch buttons, rather than putting pen to paper...and (as just one more example) how many hi skool and kollij gadjits nowudaze noze hau 2 spel?

How many mathematicians do you know, Bloke?

What is your Erdos number?

[sloan]

I do my own transcription when I really want the piece. Real men do their own.

I think that is offensive, why not say "real men boff the flute player and get her to do it"?

naah...RealMen boff the flute player, wait 12 years, buy the kid Sibelius, and let HIM do it.

[tubeast]

I once transcribed the first movement of Bach Sonate II off of Walter Hilgers´ Tubadour CD because I was too lazy to go out and buy it (bought the piece later on anyways ´cause I wasn´t able to come up with the piano part as well, and had promised to perform it on a wedding)

What strikes me is how constantly history keeps repeating itself, in that one generation claims it was better in the old days and the current youngsters were a wonderful example of decadence. Just accept it as a symptom of human aging process and be a living example of what YOU believe is good for society, but don´t make a big deal of it.

I cherish memories of grown-ups I met as a kid and who impressed me and had positive effects on me, one way or other.
I´m sure I still turned out my own way.

[anonymous4]

Of course not every single young person is a slothful idiot, but the trend in poor spelling, lack of common sense, heightened laziness, etc. can not be disputed. TV, video games, computers, MTV, pop music, etc. are certainly factors.

Actually, it has been disputed:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/157322 ... e&n=283155

[Dan Schultz]

I don't expect Dan to learn all his scales, but there's no doubt he's a professional musician. ... Doc

I appreciate your comment, Doc... but... the word in dispute is 'musician'... not 'professional'. I know professionals who don't know their a**es from a hole in the ground. I also know musicians who couldn't pour pi** out of a boot if the directions were on the heel. Each term has a million definitions. Am I a music professional simply because I try to make a living beating little Johnny's horn back into shape? Am I a professional musician just because I often make a little money playing music?
Maybe how good a musician you are ... or how good a professional you are is based on how much money you make rather than how much you know. or vise versa

[pulseczar]

Back to the original point (I hope):
Being a musician is separate from being a tuba player. The instrument is only the mechanism by which we express our musical ideas and messages. The tuba is not an end unto itself (ok, we'd all like to think it was), it is but a medium of expression, and A DAMNED FINE ONE AT THAT! The tuba, however, isn't what makes you the musician. Ability, talent, training, intuition (ok, listening/awareness), etc. go into making the musician. Thoughts?

Doc

I like this quote. It's my own definition of musicianship. I've played alot of instruments and the learning curve for each instruments has been drastically shorter than other people because of my musicianship. I transpose and find other neat ways to overcome the new clef or key.

I've also done a few gigs where my musicianship really helped me through a tight spot. Many times somebody calls me last minute to play bass guitar in their band. In this situation my ears as well as knowledge of scales helps me get down the songs faster than them taking the time to write down scale sheets and timings and rhythms etc etc.

In turn, developing these skills have helped me become a better tuba because I understand the different aspects of other parts of music. Ie, how the melody corresponds to the bass line and the different ways you can respond to the melody.

I've totally lost my focus, but in conclusion, I believe musicianship can be transferred from one instrument from another.

[Rick Denney]

Anent that, I heard a very respected flute teacher say that without an exception, the really good students she's had could sing and dance--and the very best ones could act.

Watdyall think of that?

A friend once told me that Mr. Jacobs told him that if he could mandate a single course to study it'd be drama.

I have never done dramatic acting, but I have loads of experience teaching. Teaching short courses to adults requires a little acting and many of the same skills as a stand-up comedian. All of those skills are most useful to me as a musician. They require the ability to tell a story with a sense of timing and delivery.

Rick "who should think more about the story of music" Denney

[sloan]

As for classifications, I believe that there are two types of people: those that classify things into two groups and those that don't.

There are 11 kinds of people in the world: those who can count in binary, and those who can't.

[sloan]

I'm willing to escalate the argument and make TONS more enemies...

As the treble clef is the clef in which the vast majority of western music is written, if reading treble clef is not second nature to you, then you are really not a *performer who can read written music.



________________________
*of western music

I can read treble clef just fine (for the past 50 years, anyway) - it's just that playing those notes on my BBb tuba is a bit difficult.

[Rick Denney]

Of course not every single young person is a slothful idiot, but the trend in poor spelling, lack of common sense, heightened laziness, etc. can not be disputed. TV, video games, computers, MTV, pop music, etc. are certainly factors. Teaching to the test, instead of teaching what's necessary is a problem that contributes to the problem as well. Of course, I would say poor parenting is the root cause, letting their kids over-indulge in all these things (and a push for money by adults in education with the testing fad) which takes the burden off the young generation - which may prove your point - it may not be the kid's fault after all. Touche'.

You guys are all missing it.

The reason for education's woes is what we expect of it. 100 years ago, only the well-off were college-educated. A kid had to live in an upper-middle-class family to be likely to finish high school. Most people learned a trade by apprenticing to a master, and spend their lives working with their hands.

After WWII, new prosperity changed our expectations. We came to expect every kid to graduate high school, even going so far as to making it a legal requirement for them to attend school until age 16. Some kids were not academically prepared for it, and some kids' families were not culturally committed to it. So, the schools had to make it easier to get through. This, of course, meant school became boring to the kids who were disposed to being well-educated.

Starting 30 or 35 years ago, we started expecting school to become social training grounds, in addition to teaching the fundamentals of language, history, mathematics, and science.

Also after WWII (which was, of course, after the Depression), new propsperity led to new acquisitiveness. The acquisitiveness (which is not at all wrong) led to greed (which is wrong) in those who could not control it, and this led to the desire to acquire more. This, coupled with the desire for independence on the part of women, has led to families where both parents expect to be able to hold down careers. The "career" of raising a family lost its appeal, because of how it was considered by both women and men.

Now, raising kids is a matter of spending money, just like everything else. If there is a problem to be solved, we spend money and hire a professional, instead of circling the family wagons and putting in the time to sort it out ourselves. We bring in the psychologist, the school counselor, the therapist, the babysitters (i.e., teachers) of all persuasions and expect them to address the issues.

We've forgotten so much how to be self-sufficient that we've even forgotten how to raise our own kids to be adults.

ALL those influences have had an effect, and that effect is that kids today feel detached from their families and identify more with their peer group than with their parents. They have seen how greed is destructive, and they foolishly equate acquisitiveness with greed. They have lost all sense of value in property, particularly family property, because they see property and acquisitiveness as being the same. The result is that they are even greedier than their parents without realizing it.

Groups are not creative. People are creative. But 100 years ago, intellectual creativity was the domain of a few, though wisdom was common. Now we expect creativity from everyone, and wisdom is uncommon. Look at our music schools. Innovation is what defines art, not beauty.

Colleges are now like high school used to be. Everyone feels like college is their birthright, and that any college degree is the ticket to a life of luxury. We have forgotten what it is to be educated.

The real problem, of course, is selfishness. That is one thing our kids are learning from us all too effectively. But the solution is selflessness from within, not imposed selflessness from without, as preached by those who would makes us more generous by coercion, and by those who want to abdicate the responsibility for curing the problem to others.

Rick "as selfish as the next guy" Denney

[Rick Denney]

I can read treble clef just fine (for the past 50 years, anyway) - it's just that playing those notes on my BBb tuba is a bit difficult.

Bingo!

As to moving notes around on imaginary clefs, I admire those who can do it. I can't. And I have plenty of practice doing transcriptions and arrangements for just a bonehead hobbYist.

Rick "wishing he'd had the same mental breakthrough after a few bars of writing a transposition as did Klaus" Denney

[sloan]

The reason for education's woes is what we expect of it. 100 years ago, only the well-off were college-educated. A kid had to live in an upper-middle-class family to be likely to finish high school. Most people learned a trade by apprenticing to a master, and spend their lives working with their hands.

My grandfather stood at the lathe so that my father could sit at the drafting table so that I could stare at a computer screen so that my sons can study music.

Repeat as necessary.

[Mark]

I truly believe, as just one other example of something similar, that the age of the great mathematicians is in our past - as mathematicians now punch buttons, rather than putting pen to paper...and (as just one more example) how many hi skool and kollij gadjits nowudaze noze hau 2 spel?

How many mathematicians do you know, Bloke?

What is your Erdos number?

I've known a few mathematicians and some of them have never used a computer. Bloke is making the classic mistake of equating mathematics with arithmetic.

[Joe Baker]

As for classifications, I believe that there are two types of people: those that classify things into two groups and those that don't.

There are 11 kinds of people in the world: those who can count in binary, and those who can't.

That's only 10 types. What's the 11th one?
_______________________________
Joe Baker, who is the first type.

[Rick Denney]

I've known a few mathematicians and some of them have never used a computer. Bloke is making the classic mistake of equating mathematics with arithmetic.

That is a very common mistake. Many people (accountants come to mind) are good one one and not the other. Many are afraid of math because of trouble they have had with arithmetic.

Rick "who knows at least one mathemetician also known to Mark" Denney

[windshieldbug]

As for classifications, I believe that there are two types of people: those that classify things into two groups and those that don't.

There are 11 kinds of people in the world: those who can count in binary, and those who can't.

That's only 10 types. What's the 11th one?

That's only 01 types. What are 10 and 11? (c'mon, 00 counts!)