Tuba in Big Band

[finnbogi]

I know not to discuss big with a Texan, because it can lead to serious problems.

When Texans start talking about everything being bigger in Texas, I tend to ask them how big their pint is...

[windshieldbug]

When Texans start talking about everything being bigger in Texas, I tend to ask them how big their pint is...

... and how MANY pints make up a gallon...

[LoyalTubist]

That's jazz. As I stated earlier, Big Band music is not specifically jazz music. It's pop music. The rock 'n' roll, rap, grunge of its time. When you hear Big Band music, you know it.

Example of singers:

Mel Torme would arguably be considered a jazz singer.

Frank Sinatra was, without a doubt, a Big Band singer.

And how soon we forget after Rich has been dead for a few years?

It's Matteson!

[adam0408]

loyal tubist said lots of stuff here....

So what youre saying is that to you, "big band" refers to a style of music and not a particular setup of instrumentation?

What about a large jazz ensemble that plays a latin tune or a bop tune or cool jazz? When I hear the term "big band" to me it doesnt just mean the swingin music of the forties that people danced to. It refers to the ensemble........


I am just trying to get some clarification over semantics.

I am not arguing, I am just curious about what you have to say. Ah well, off to practice for a while. Got a recital coming up. SOOON.

[LoyalTubist]

Exactly (the answer to your first question), I'm really too young to be that kind of authority. You know Big Band music when you hear it. It isn't jazz, necessarily. It's commercial, but it's well-polished. It's a style. Solos are written out and rehearsed (as in "In the Mood" as played by Glenn Miller.) Benny Goodman was both a jazz musician and a Big Band musician and he said there was a difference in the two styles.

Go out and borrow/rent/buy these two movies:

The Glenn Miller Story (Jimmy Stewart)

The Benny Goodman Story (Steve Allen)

Highly fictionalized, yet effective in their intent.

Enjoy.

Bill

[adam0408]

Exactly (the answer to your first question), I'm really too young to be that kind of authority. You know Big Band music when you hear it. It isn't jazz, necessarily. It's commercial, but it's well-polished. It's a style. Solos are written out and rehearsed (as in "In the Mood" as played by Glenn Miller.) Benny Goodman was both a jazz musician and a Big Band musician and he said there was a difference in the two styles.

Go out and borrow/rent/buy these two movies:

The Glenn Miller Story (Jimmy Stewart)

The Benny Goodman Story (Steve Allen)

Highly fictionalized, yet effective in their intent.

Enjoy.

Bill

Yeah I dig. (to be hip to the jazzer's lingo, myself being an enthusiastic if not skilled jazzer)

[tubajoe]

That's jazz. As I stated earlier, Big Band music is not specifically jazz music. It's pop music. The rock 'n' roll, rap, grunge of its time. When you hear Big Band music, you know it.

Yup -- and its basis was a big racial divide; and "big band" or "swing band" or "dance band" or "sweet band" or "Mickey band" (as in Mickey Mouse) was the antethesis of jazz.

While the beat was the similar, the intention was not.

LT is exactly right -- this was the pop music of the day and nothing more -- and tuba was often the bass. Compared to the pop music of the time, Jazz was more of a niche arty daring thing.

The two-beat bands (pre Miller etc) used tuba a lot. There are still a few of these in the Midwest... keeping some tuba players employed with regular tedious gigs for geriatric crowds (and "jazz" is still forbidden)

Now, the funny thing is that some jazz artists did run "dance bands" to pay the bills -- Louis Armstrong was one... played white dance music in segregated clubs (this was aside to his jazz). Dance bands could also play polkas, and some saccharin latin grooves too... rhumbas, beguines etc.

In the late 40's dance bands got big, and that I think is where "Big Bands" sorta come from... bass lines went into 4, and tuba was replaced.


Later on, the lines blurred a bit after Miller with Basie and Ellington... as those bands had their "dance" tunes as well as their "jazz" tunes, in addition to an amazing evolution.

...which is where the evolution of the "jazz band" came and the dance band thing sorta died into the 50's and 60's. Big bands still existed, but moreso in a 'show band' vibe (ala Sinatra etc) still most often with racial segregation in tact -- and the amount of improvisation/intensity of harmony used went along those lines too, as Basie's and Ellington's music got heavier and more involved - then spurned bands like Mingus etc... which still used that Big Band instrumentation (ala Miller) but were outright jazz, based in progressive arrangements and bop-ish improvisation.


The thing is that Big Band music was intended to make people dance... Jazz was not... and that was another reason for the separation.

In fact I have a live Kenton album where he jokes about this with the crowd, then rips a face-peeling rendition of a dance tune - Satin Doll (which no one could have danced to)


Another part of this is the ROLE of the tuba... Dance bands used tuba as the bass (ala pre-Pierson Lombardo), and later some jazz bands (Kenton, Maynard, Miles/Evans) used it as a horn. The role is quite different, as are the parts, and even the equipment used.

The tradition continues -- and players still tend to gravitate towards one role or the other.

discuss.

[LoyalTubist]

The most obvious Big Band era band's use of a tuba was in Sammy Kaye's band. None of the Big Bands I know actually used the tuba as the bass of the group, although it might have reinforced the string bass player. Sammy Kaye's band had a sweet sound, almost as schmaltzy as Guy Lombardo (remember, he really didn't figure in as a "Big Band", he was a holdover from the 1920s!) but it swung. Kay Kyser also used the tuba prominently. I think he was probably the first to consider the tuba as part of the trombone section, even though the tuba used was an old King recording bass. Kyser gave the impression that he was a fun guy, yet he was an absolute tyrant as a leader. No facial hair. No drinking on tour. When he would play for Army posts and Naval bases, some of the servicemen who saw him prepare with his group for a show would comment that Kay Kyser was stricter than anyone they saw in the military. That doesn't sound like a jazz group.



Kay Kyser

[LoyalTubist]

This is a picture of the Sammy Kaye band in the late 1930s. As you can see, the tuba player and the bass player were one in the same. I just received this picture, so I stand corrected and go along with what TubaJoe was saying.



Sammy Kaye

I just noticed... THERE ARE NO TRUMPETS IN THIS PICTURE!

AHHHH! PARADISE!

[LoyalTubist]

And this is a picture of the Kay Kyser band. If you notice, the tuba player is standing behind the recording bass (which is being held in a tuba stand) and he is the light haired man singing next to the bass player. The setup was for a movie--I don't think this was KK's normal setup.

[LoyalTubist]

This is the Horace Heidt band. I know it's blurry, but it's the only picture I could find. You can watch the movie Pot o' Gold for a good picture of the tuba player. Oh, his sponsor on radio was Hire's Root Beer, so his slogan was, "It's Heidt time for Hires!"



Horace Heidt

[tubajoe]

That's pretty much the standard 2-beat "dance band" setup -- drums, tuba (double on upright bass -- often metal), 1 bone, 2 tpts, and from 3-5 saxes and sometimes guitar and/or banjo (which was as much of a percussion instrument as chordal).

That was kind of the standard thru the 30s into the 40s for traveling bands I think.

Later, things got bigger with Miller and Goodman etc...

...which also led to basslines in 4 and the elimination of the tuba as a bass rhythm section instrument.

[LoyalTubist]

I see the trumpet now.

[tubajoe]

This is the Horace Heidt band.

This one is probably a dance band setup too -- but more "orchestral" with those front players being a string section and the back row being the horn players. Notice the two guitars. Probably a greatly expanded setup, for a movie or the likes.

[LoyalTubist]

Horace Heidt always used a harp.

This was not for a movie, but at a concert hall in Central Pennsylvania. So this was the normal setup. The floor is cleared for dancing.

[tubajoe]

Horace Heidt always used a harp.

Harps are cool. Just like being in heaven

I can imagine some accompaniment to some synchronized swimming with that one!

[LoyalTubist]

This is the Stan Kenton band in 1963. If you look hazily at the side of the 5th trombone player, you can see a tuba. Stan Kenton, I think, was one of the first to use this kind of doubling.




Stan Kenton

[LoyalTubist]

If you look stage right, you can see the metal bass that TubaJoe was talking about. This is the Stan Kenton band in 1941. There is no tuba player. SK is on the piano. That's why everyone is looking his way, because he's leading the group, too.

[LoyalTubist]

This is why they had to clear the floor when these bands played.

[LoyalTubist]

Here is a sample of a typical Big Band song:

PRAISE THE LORD AND PASS THE AMMUNITION

Kay Kyser and his band and singers

It has tuba.