Why use an F tuba?

[Z-Tuba Dude]

....... I've met a lot of elitist attitudes about soloing on E-flat, but I agree it has to be a personal preference......

If that is really true, it is very unfortunate. For any of us to cop an attitude like that, is silly. It's not as if there is ANY LONG standing tradition held by tubists, who are soloists. The phenomenon of a tubist as a soloist (particularly a full time soloist), is so new, that there has not been enough time for any real traditions to develop.

To be discriminatory about any instrument's suitability as a solo instrument, based solely on it's key, is ridiculous. John Fletcher did pretty well as a solo voice, with an Eb (not to mention Pat Sheridan), and there was a fellow by the name of Phillips, who was fairly successful as a soloist.....on a CC tuba! (what was his first name again?....)

[JCradler]

Rick,
Have you played the Norwegian Star? If one is looking for something to blend with trombones(other than a cuisinart...) this may be it. Unlike any other Eb that I have played, in a good way.
Funny how we're usually seeking to blend with this or balance that. Do you think other instrumentalists are concerned about how their axes will behave with the tuba? Has this ever been a 2-way street?

[tubeast]

I don´t play Eb on a regular basis, but have had a toot or two on my section mates´ Besson 4+1 and Yamaha´s copy thereof.

I DID add a CC to my horns after playing F for about 10 years, though.

If I want to own several horns, I´d want to make sure they overlapped only to a small extent, soundwise. If my budget is good enough for three horns, I´d wish for a HUGEophone in CC or BBb, a smallish tuba of the same pitch and a bass tuba.
If I choose to play CC, a not-so-big F sounds logical, because Ebs tend to sound like small CCs already.

As to my choice of axe according to what the teacher tells you, and not deciding on your own standards: Gimme a break !!
How do you aqcuire your OWN sound as a young, budding musician ? You imitate. Who do you imitate ? People around you who impress you in their musicianship. HOPEFULLY your teacher is one of those.
And hopefully, you´ll manage to go beyond what you´ve learned from others eventually.
As you mature musically, youll go for your own thing, but you still will be guided by the "school" you descended from. It´ll be called something like "A.J.´s heritage" though.

In my case I just went for the first good horns that crossed my path. I considered that as an amateur, I couldn´t go wrong with horns that were in professionals´ possession for a while.
Up to a certain point, I should think this would be the way to go for a student of music as well. It takes a lot of time and practise to outgrow pro-level horns.

Finally, what I prefer in my F rather than the CC: it´s MUCH easier to alternate styles of playing. The F makes it easy to play tongue-in-cheek vs. joyful vs. sad vs...
The CC makes it easy to play "WHHOOOUUAAH!"

[joebob]

Is it just an American thing? Eb seems to be good enough for everyone else

Who is in this group, "everyone else?"

From what I understand, people in non-American countries also use F tubas. As a matter of fact, most F tubas I've seen are made in non-American countries.

and most F tubas seem to have exceptional intonation issues.

It seems to me that to make this claim that one would have to qualitfy it by saying that "most of the F tubas I have tried...." Unless of course you have actually tried most F tubas (not just most models).


It seems the real questions are: What do all/most Eb tubas have in common and what do all/most F tubas have in common? Based on that one could then make a judgement as to which set of characteristics one prefers. It seems to me that one should base judgement more on an individual horn's characteristics than on general characteristics of a huge group of tubas (ie all Eb tubas in the world). A large F tuba may have more in common with an Eb tuba than it does with a small F tuba.

Generally, people do not have the time or resources to spend great amounts of time trying vast amounts of different tubas. If I learned that all of the winners of recent "real gig" auditions were playing F tubas not Eb tubas and I wanted to win a similar "real gig" audition, I might spend my limited resources and time finding a tuba similar to the ones audition winners are using. After I have won a real gig audition, if I have the inclination, time, and resources, I might mess around with Eb or other types of tubas on the job. But I would only do this after I'd gotten tenure in my "real gig." If I am a hobbyist on the tuba and consistent high quality performance was not how I made my living, I might spent lots of time messing around with all sorts of different horns. If orchestral tubists had more time and resources, maybe they would spend more time trying Eb tubas. In a real gig, the trombone/brass section isn't interested in humoring you while you experiment with your latest Ebay find.

[Lew]

[windshieldbug]

The new large... tubas are an intonation picnic. A real non-issue for me. Sound is #1 consideration anyway. Then I have to be able to find a way to play it in tune that doesn't get in the way of the music. Where that line lies is different for different folks. I don't mind alternate fingerings or slide-pulling.

...

Gotta find what works for you in your situation. Different for everybody.

Amen, brother!

The need for searching for equipment is over after you won the job, isn't it? Apparently, you have what is necessary, or they wouldn't have chosen you. A new horn search would be something you just wanted to do.

You don't want to become Woody Allen's dead shark from Annie Hall

In a real gig, the trombone/brass section isn't interested in humoring you while you experiment with your latest Ebay find.

If you have tenure, what can they do?

A little thing called "Dismissal For Cause"...

[joebob]

most F tubas I've seen are made in non-American countries.

Obviously this is not an important part of the issue. Does it really matter where they are made or is it more important where they are sold?

I agree it is not important, just interesting to note that F tuba manufacturing is not an American tradition.

It seems the real questions are: What do all/most Eb tubas have in common and what do all/most F tubas have in common? Based on that one could then make a judgement as to which set of characteristics one prefers.

This is exactly the real question - which you have failed to address in your post.

Sorry - I was addressing the questions, "Why F tuba" and "Is it just an American thing?" Why F tuba is because of what I said - players look at pros for guidance on what to play and choose the F. My own reasons have already been stated by others: Eb tuba responds less quickly, feels tubbier. I prefer more immediate articulation response, lighter sound, not too dark. However, again, not all Eb tubas are tubby, and not all F tubas are light and respond well. I just don't have time to spend looking for that Eb tuba that responds better than the F tuba I already like.

[Rick Denney]

Rick,
Have you played the Norwegian Star? If one is looking for something to blend with trombones(other than a cuisinart...) this may be it. Unlike any other Eb that I have played, in a good way.
Funny how we're usually seeking to blend with this or balance that. Do you think other instrumentalists are concerned about how their axes will behave with the tuba? Has this ever been a 2-way street?

I've played a couple of the Miraphone Eb's, but not the new one. I'm already set in my ways, and can barely manage my current two sets of fingerings (with variations for each instrument).

No, I've never met anyone who cares whether they blend with the tuba. I can't even get them to tune to the tuba.

Rick "thinking tuba players are even more into sound than other instrumentalists" Denney

[Rick Denney]

It seems the real questions are: What do all/most Eb tubas have in common and what do all/most F tubas have in common?

The problem is that you won't identify what makes Eb different from F per se, but rather what makes current Eb tubas different from current F tubas. There are many Bb/C pairs of contrabass tubas that are very similar and made from the same general plan, but very few Eb/F pairs that are made from the same plan. Willson is an exception with their 3200 F and 3400 Eb, and Miraphone may be a bit of an exception with the Norwegian Star Eb and 281 F, which are at least on the same planet, but for the most part, F's have followed a separate developmental tradition than Eb's.

Thus, I think it's easier to make the case that the differences between Bb and C are subtle at best while the differences between Eb and F tubas currently on the market are more pronounced. But the difference is not a function of the extra bit of tubing so much as it is a function of the design objectives.

Rick "who likes barkier sound of most F's" Denney

[djwesp]

I'll throw this out there...

(I'm an Eb player and F)


I think that most of the rationale in application towards the F is that orchestra pieces facilitate its tuning moreso than an Eb.


Orchestral parts are generally sharp keys (to facilitate stringed instruments) and the F is more capable of handling this than the Eb while keeping intonation issues to a minimum.

Before this starts an argument of, "why ain't there beein no G horns than"... I look to the argument of traditionalism and heritage in instrument production.

[GC]

I seem to rememer a post that talked about Roger Bobo's D and G tubas.

[circusboy]

I learned to play on an Eb. Then I came into a situation where I was living in a very small space and traveling constantly; I needed a physically smaller horn.

I ended up buying a small F--mostly for its size.

I learned the fingerings.

Then something magical happened. I heard its sound--I mean really heard that F tuba sound--and fell in love with it.

I'm currently shopping for a replacement for this horn, because I think I can find something easier to play (especially re: intonation). Though my situation has changed, I still want something smaller. But regardless of that, I'm so smitten by the F sound that I can't imagine buying something else.

[UDELBR]

Then something magical happened. I heard its sound--I mean really heard that F tuba sound--and fell in love with it.

I identified with what you wrote here. My large Eb reminds me alot of my own voice. I think that's why I've got such a soft spot for it (that, and sonority, and resonance, and...).

They say that African craftsmen will only make kalimbas (thumb-pianos) for folks, using that person's own vocal range, thus reflecting their own inherent 'musicality'. I'd like to think there's a parallel there.

[Mark E. Chachich]

I learned F tuba while in college. Unlike many people, I could deal with the intonation and did not have any serious issues with the low range on an F tuba. I liked and still like the sound of a F tuba especially the Alexanders. However, when it came time to buy, I bought an E flat York Monster.

Why did I buy an E flat?
a.) I wanted a bass tuba, I reasoned that this tuba was good, could do
what I needed with a bass tuba and in the future I would get an F.
b.) E flats were cheaper then F tubas and in 1978 old E flats were
really cheap because most tubists did not want them.
c.) the reason that I spent the money was that the tuba was good, had a
really nice sound, had intonation that I could live with and was
responsive throught the registers when I played it. The bottom line
was that it worked for me. The fact that I could afford a tuba that
worked for me was a very nice side benifit.

Why did I keep the E flat?
a.) I like the sound
b.) it did (and still does) what I need a bass tuba to do
c.) I changed from music to scientific research as a carreer. I no longer
needed a bass tuba for auditions, jobs, etc... In fact, I can play
whatever I like because I no longer am attempting to play the tuba for
a living, I play the tuba for my pleasure.

I like the sound of a good F tuba and the blend with a trombone section, the sound quality is (to me) closer to the trombone section. I really enjoy the F in Romanian and German orchestras.

To me, the E flat has a different sound (not better or worse, perhaps rounder and more bass like). I like the E flat sound as much as the F sound. I really enjoy the E flat tubas in British orchestras and brass bands.

I would have been as happy with an F as an E flat.

Mark

[Steve Inman]

I am an amateur tubist who has played both F and Eb over the years (never at the same time). As a typical US school kid, I started with BBb. As an adult amateur, I ended switching to Eb (Besson 983) as most of my playing was for quintet, and the upper register playing was quite a bit easier for me. However when I started playing with a quartet, often trying to cover a 2nd 'bone part and wanting to play it "as written" to keep the intervals "correct", the 983 just seemed to broad in sound. I ended up switching to a smaller F tuba (first an Amati/Cerveny 6V, then later a YFB-621). These worked well with the quartet, but just weren't quite big enough for quintet (to my ears, and to the quintet's combined ears as well). Today I use a Conn 56J for larger groups and a YEB-381 5V Eb for quintet and smaller ensembles.

I'm using an Eb instead of an F because I've chosen playability (intonation and a solid mid-low register) over sound. If I could find a rotary F tuba that was big enough to put a solid bottom end on a quintet, with good intonation and a solid low C, I would save up and abandon Eb in favor of such an F, because I **REALLY LIKE** the sound of a rotary F tuba. I have yet to play the new Firebird, so perhaps there is still a chance ....

Failing this, I will probably remain an Eb player, as my YEB-381 plays well in tune and has no weenie medium-low notes. I might even some day consider becoming an Eb-only player, swapping my Conn 56J and Yamaha Eb for a larger Eb solution -- such as a Willson 3400 or MW 2141 or 2040/5. Based on Jonathantuba's assertion that the 2040 retains some of the F tuba sound characteristics, I'm interested in auditioning one sometime.

Cheers,

[DBCooper]

Why use an F tuba?

Because my students expect it.

[Chen]

[quote="harold"]What's the deal with this?

Is it just an American thing?

Eb seems to be good enough for everyone else and most F tubas seem to have exceptional intonation issues.

What are the clear advantages to using an F tuba?

I'll share my own experience and any pointing comment is welcome.
My first tuba was a Miraphone 181-6VGB F tuba, got it when I was 14 because my teacher played the same model (that's another issue). I also grew up admiring John Fletcher, Walter Hilgers, Michael Lind, I used to listen to these monster players everyday on my way to school. But my favorite was Fletcher. To me the sound was just more resonant and felt more open. Years ago I heard Rex Martin live, he played Hindemith sonate on a Besson Eb tuba, and I was blown away; although it was somewhat different from, I dare say, the true British feel in John Fletcher's sound. But it did remind me what wonderful sound that Eb was capable of, and was different from that of a German F's sound. Over the years I have played on quite a few F tubas on many occasions, such as Meinl Weston's 45S, 45SLP, 45SLZ, Hirsbrunner HB-8, HB-10, B&S PT-10, PT-15, Yamaha 822, 821, 621, etc. But only 2 Eb tubas: Besson 981 and 983. I hope this qualifies me to make some statements on this topic.
A few years ago I finally got myself a nice Besson 981 Eb, and I loved it. I got a Bach 24AW for it, and was immediately impressed with the British "feel" and I almost cried because of that. (well it's just me, because like I said, I am a huge John Fletcher fan) I think it's a shame that for many years Eb tubas were under-rated in the US.

Now into the topic, The difference, in my opinion, between comparably sized, Eb and F tubas with the same type of valves (piston/piston or rotary/rotary), is that Eb tuba offers a darker, more mellow sound while the F tuba plays brighter with a tiny bit more clarity, and edge. Of course that's just in general; the 45SLP plays very dark, and the 983 plays just as cleanly as any F tuba. But I think in general it is true.

No, F tubas are NOT better than Eb tubas, they are just tubas in different keys. Just like CC and BBb tuba. I think Patrick Sheridan's playing is a testiment of what Eb tubas are capable of.

I eventually got rid of the 981 because the 3+1 configuration. I'm now drooling at the 983, hope I'll find a good deal on a used one some day.

One interesting thing I didn't think much about was that, I didn't have any problem with low range on the F tuba when I first got it when I was 14, and the years after that. But when I put F away to learn CC for 3-4 months and come back to play F, I had problem with low range. I would play with double buzzing (i think it's called that).

My question for you guys: Is the F tuba designed to be paired with the BBb tuba, in other words, for players whose big tuba is keyed in BBb. I ask because the Germans still play F/BBb and they have no problem with low range, and add my own experience to that. I feel F/BBb and Eb/CC is how they are supposed to be, bold statement, I know, so fire away!

Any constructive comment is appreciated!

Have a good one now!

[tubatooter1940]

Then something magical happened. I heard its sound--I mean really heard that F tuba sound--and fell in love with it.

I identified with what you wrote here. My large Eb reminds me alot of my own voice. I think that's why I've got such a soft spot for it (that, and sonority, and resonance, and...).

They say that African craftsmen will only make kalimbas (thumb-pianos) for folks, using that person's own vocal range, thus reflecting their own inherent 'musicality'. I'd like to think there's a parallel there.

I wish I could sing as low as my Eb King. I kept my E-Bay King because it can sing. I also chose it to match John Reno's vocal range. I like playing bass lines close to the bottom of the horn's range and to jump one octave for solos and be at or above the vocal line. A capo on the first fret of the guitar can put me in all my favorite keys.

[Z-Tuba Dude]

My question for you guys: Is the F tuba designed to be paired with the BBb tuba, in other words, for players whose big tuba is keyed in BBb. I ask because the Germans still play F/BBb and they have no problem with low range, and add my own experience to that. I feel F/BBb and Eb/CC is how they are supposed to be, bold statement, I know, so fire away!

I think that the problem for "American" tubists is that we were mostly brought up on contrabass tubas.

When I first approached a german F tuba, I couldn't figure out the low C thing. What I wasn't getting, coming from the contrabass perspective, is the the low C is a very low note on the F horn (discounting the pedal register), whereas it is a very comfortable, middle range note on the Bb, and C tubas. The fact that the low C has the same fingering on the Bb, and F only served to exacerbate the confusion of my instincts.

Once I learned that I needed to approach the low C, as I do the low G on my C tuba, I began to get it.

[MartyNeilan]

My question for you guys: Is the F tuba designed to be paired with the BBb tuba, in other words, for players whose big tuba is keyed in BBb. I ask because the Germans still play F/BBb and they have no problem with low range, and add my own experience to that.

I will postulate that BBb players have an easier time on F tuba with the low C. WHY? Because they are already used to playing that C through their v-e-r-y long 4th valve. It has a noticeably different blow to it than playing that same low C open on a C tuba. Don't believe me? Try playing a low C on two comparable contrabass tubas (aka Miraphone 186) pitched in both BBb and CC back to back. That fourth valve CC will initially have a very different feel than the open one, but the goal is to make then sound the same - the audience doesn't care how many valves you are using.
Marty "who played mostly BBb tubas when he picked up his first F."