Vaughan Williams Question for Brits(UK)?

[Steve Inman]

It's a Besson (or Boosey) F



http://cgi.ebay.com/Besson-F-Tuba-4-val ... dZViewItem

Didn't you used to have one listed FS? I assume it found a good home ....

BTW -- if you did have one once, could you post your impressions of the horn?

Cheers,

[Rick Denney]

Here is the picture of Catelinet with Vaughan Williams in 1954. I guess that is the F tuba he used for the premiere. Anyone recognize what make it is? It certainly looks small!

Jonathon, thanks for posting that picture. That's a wonderful picture that I had not seen before. Where did you find it?

Yes, the look on the Doctor's face was priceless, and fits with my impression of that first recording made the day following the premiere. He is allowed his looks--he was 82 at the time.

The instrument is the same as the compensating Besson F that I played for a bit over at Jay Rozen's apartment when he lived in Austin. It did not have the large bell, of course, which was introduced apparently at Fletcher's urging to create the Sovereign model in the 70's.

Some of the Barlow F's are even smaller, with 12" bells. I recommend Cliff Bevan's book, particularly the first edition, which shows one being played by George Wall as a student. He also has a picture (in the second edition) of Stuart Roebuck with one of the larger versions of that instrument. The Barlow F's were not compensated, and had five valves in a 3+2 configuration, similar to the modern French-make saxhorn basse (which is a five-valved euphonium).

Rick "thinking the Yamaha 621 owes a lot to the Besson design" Denney

[humphrey]

I've generally heard it as Cat-er-linnay.

[eupher61]

The one conversation I had with Phillip, I said "Kat-lin-a" and he said "close enough". I didn't use his last name after that! But, yes, it was a Besson 3+1, he'd only played that and euphonium before the concerto, in addition to his piano duties at BBC. The Besson comp F is a great horn. Certainly it's not an orchestral instrument, but for solo works it's terrific.

[NickJones]

I have a Euph part in treble clef from OUP for the second movment of the RVW concerto , along with my copy in Bass Clef for the concerto , I don't think OUP do a full soloist part in treble clef , as when it is used as the concerto work in associated board treble clef tuba only goes up to grade 5 ( so you have to learn bass clef reading for up to grade 8 , Piano playing for theory exams and performing diplomas) , great piece ,played in on Eb for exams and auditions and only seen it played on Eb over here , am sure there have been perfomances on F.

[Wyvern]

Thanks Pop Korn for the insight into a world lost - very interesting!

I suppose sound concepts have been continually evolving, but have really accelarated in the last 50 years.

In his world you did not desperately need (psychologically) to be heard. You played your part and let it add to the orchestral colour. If the timps and bones drowned you - that was the composer's problem.

That is a thought provoking view. I doubt if many of us would agree with that today.

[Wyvern]

The "I WILL be heard" attitude has been prevalent much longer than many of us have been around, as has the arms race that was the inevitable result. Most of us have participated/do participate in this arms race, as well as retain this attitude of "ME" to some degree. How many are selfless enough to be content simply blending with the ensemble without being a discernible voice in the ensemble?

Doc, I don't know if it is just the "ME" attitude, but our perception of what is the "RIGHT" balance. Music has become much more bass heavy in the last 50 years and that has no doubt, consciously, or unconsciously changed our perception. Also, what we hear on recordings has also changed our perception of how the tuba should balance.

Who but Wagner can really definitively say if the tuba should be the predominant voice in the overture to Meistersinger, or blend in more with the basses. I think unless the conductor says he wants otherwise, most of us take it to be a solo for the tuba, leading the bass ensemble.

Although commendably selfless I think most of us today would consider the balance in Arthur Doyle's day as rather thin and a professional tubist who just blended and did no give a real foundation would not be considered up to the job today. Neither is right, or wrong - but different perceptions of how the music should sound.

[Wyvern]

Well, if everyone is playing pea shooters, you may have balance, albeit balance on a smaller overall scale, hence my query about recordings.

A recording I would recommend is Elgar Symphony No.1/Cockaigne Overture with Barbirolli conducting played by the Philharmonia in 1962 which would be before the arms race started in Britain, so no doubt an F tuba (don't know the tubist?)

http://www.amazon.com/Elgar-Symphony-fl ... F8&s=music

I have got a lot of pleasure from this performance. Really evokes old England!

[windshieldbug]

before the arms race started in Britain

Wouldn't it be more suitable to term it a "bells race"?

[Z-Tuba Dude]

I'm sure we could argue endlessly until Wagner's intentions are definitively known. What was the common school of thought among Wagner and his contemporaries?

I'm sure if you asked Wagner, he would say that he was peerless, so whatever anyone else was doing, has no relevance to HIS work!

Seriously though, the Meistersinger passage has the tuba playing the melody an octave higher than the basses, which would indicate to me that the tuba should be heard as a distinct voice, at that moment in time.

If we tubists approach all types and forms of music with that "I will be heard/ME/I'm the soloist-prima donna/look at me" attitude, we do a great disservice to the music, the ensemble, the composer, and the listener, and most of all, to ourselves.

We are deluding ourselves if we feel that the tuba is the main show, any more than 5% of the time (mileage may vary by composer/individual work).

[windshieldbug]

We are deluding ourselves if we feel that the tuba is the main show, any more than 5% of the time (mileage may vary by composer/individual work).

Prokofiev 5!?

[Wyvern]

Is there any tradition in England of playing it on the euphonium? Whether by tuba players or euphoniumists. After all, it IS the land of the euphonium.

I believe the Romanza middle movement is sometimes played on euphonium by euphoniumists (similarly with bassoon and cello), but not the whole concerto.

If I am wrong, I am sure a euphonium player will put me right!

[peter birch]

Is there any tradition in England of playing it on the euphonium? Whether by tuba players or euphoniumists. After all, it IS the land of the euphonium.

I believe the Romanza middle movement is sometimes played on euphonium by euphoniumists (similarly with bassoon and cello), but not the whole concerto.

If I am wrong, I am sure a euphonium player will put me right!

the euphoniun doesn't have enough low notes to play it

[Highams]

Yes indeed, mov. 2 is often played as a Euphonium solo with piano in the UK;

http://www.euph9.freeserve.co.uk/recitals.htm#three

and it sits beautifully on the the instrument. The low descending passage is not a problem for a 4v compensator.

The other 2 movs though really suit the tuba best and are best left to it.

Great posts Pop Korn, I have many vintage recordings of those great names you mention, and I still listen to Dennis Brain's Mozart Concerto recordings frequently. Another fine euponium of the past was Rowland Jones of Black Dyke. He went off and had a celebrated career as an operatic tenor.

CB

[windshieldbug]

Why would someone play an instrument that doesn't have all the notes?

The same reason I play a horn that doesn't have all right notes...

[peter birch]

[quote="Highams"]Yes indeed, mov. 2 is often played as a Euphonium solo with piano in the UK;

http://www.euph9.freeserve.co.uk/recitals.htm#three

and it sits beautifully on the the instrument. The low descending passage is not a problem for a 4v compensator.

The other 2 movs though really suit the tuba best...

does playing the middle movement count as being able to play the whole piece?