The very BEST tuba out there?

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Post by djwesp »

Doc wrote: We no longer live in the dark ages. We don't use sticks and rocks. We have tools, and the tools keep getting better and better. If you want to play a Wieprecht tuba, go ahead. I, however, will opt for the tool that best suits the job at hand.

I'm not advocating taking a knife to a gun fight.



What I AM saying is that (using the contractor example), you don't buy a 1,500 dollar nail gun for a beginner shop class. Focus on playing. That will lead you in the right direction to finding the "best horn".

The Big Ben wrote: Jeff "Bartender, another round for the house. And a Diet Coke for my college friend sitting next to me....." Benedict

Don't be dogging diet coke like that. :D
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Steve Inman
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Post by Steve Inman »

tubafatness wrote:Time to put this topic train back on its tracks....

I haven't done much in the way of tuba testing, but the best bass tuba I've played was a tie between the Willson 3400 Eb and the MW 2182. I've never really played a bunch of contrabass tubas, so the best for me is the Rudy I own and play, (although I did like the Yorkbrunner I played for abut a minute at the Midwest Clinic.)
Doh! My friend with the fat tuba -- I must (very sadly) offer a different impression re: the 3400 Eb. I have a weenie Yamaha Eb that plays circles around the Willson in the low register -- say from BBb down to the pedal Eb. I WANTED to love the Willson Eb -- I WANTED to buy one, 'cause it's BIGGER -- hoping it might be a one-tuba-plays-all solution for me. But alas, this was not my impression. I've tried different Willson Eb's, I've tried different mouthpieces -- to no avail. I was really hoping the Willson would be "it", due to the size. (Most of my playing is quintet, so an Eb tuba that was almost as big as a 4/4 CC would be very nice for me.) I know this may be heresy, but that was my experience. The weenie Yammie may not sound as full as the Willson, but it (mine, at least) is oh so much easier to play.

Did the Willson Eb you played have a "speak-easy" low register? (He asks, still hoping there may be at least ONE on the planet that does ... ?)

I need to go try the MW2141, and perhaps the PT-22. Dan Clouse has given his new one (2141) rave reviews.

Cheers,
Steve Inman
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1291 BBb again

Post by pwhitaker »

The best tuba for me -that I've played, and now own - is the 1291 BBb. After over 55 years of playing I've found the right horn for me and my groups (Trad Jazz).
The icing on this cake for me is the new 5th valve slide I just got from Miraphone which is 2 full steps (~ 2+3 combination).
I can play down to the pedal A (6 ledger lines down) with all 5 valves depressed. Because I'm old and lazy and use large (36 mm) MP's I do a lot of my playing down there. This horn really plays like one would expect an FF (contrabass F) to play.
The clarity, response and authority down there is like no other BBb I've played.
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Post by Tom Holtz »

tubalawlisa - You got Kelly's 3400? Yep, that horn plays. I had it for almost a week. You got a sweet axe. No issues with that low register.

BGII - I love my Besson 983, too. Most everyone I know who's got one digs it. I'm using mine all over the place. It's as close to the mythical all-around horn as I'll ever get.

Steve Inman - Yeah, there are 3400's out there that cook. I used Kelly Diamond's (now under new ownership, see above) on a couple of Marine Band jobs and it was super. I understand where you're coming from, though... I've got a Yamaha 621 F, which certainly qualifies as a "weenie Yammie" and it's the easiest-slotting-low-register tuba I own. I've gotten to know my Besson well enough to get around in the basement without delay, and the Willson would have done just fine, but Yamaha clarity on the bottom end of the small horn is rarely outdone. You may have to look for a long time to find a 3400 or a 2141 that can come close in clarity and ease to your Yamaha.
      
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Post by MikeMason »

if you want a bass tuba with a shocking low register,try a firebird.It even has a great rotory f tuba sound.
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Post by Steve Inman »

Tom Holtz wrote: Steve Inman - Yeah, there are 3400's out there that cook. I used Kelly Diamond's (now under new ownership, see above) on a couple of Marine Band jobs and it was super. I understand where you're coming from, though... I've got a Yamaha 621 F, which certainly qualifies as a "weenie Yammie" and it's the easiest-slotting-low-register tuba I own. I've gotten to know my Besson well enough to get around in the basement without delay, and the Willson would have done just fine, but Yamaha clarity on the bottom end of the small horn is rarely outdone. You may have to look for a long time to find a 3400 or a 2141 that can come close in clarity and ease to your Yamaha.
My hope is renewed, thanks!

And regarding my Yamaha Eb, if I remember the story correctly, Michael Moore (Atlanta Symphony tubist) stopped by Lee Stofer's shop when it was still in Atlanta and happend upon my Yamaha Eb, there to have the 5th valve lengthened to flat whole step configuration. Evidently, Mr. Moore gave it a toot, and had some positive things to say about it. So, it may be that I have a "better than average" specimen of a YEB-381 -- which could be why my side-by-side test with a couple of Willson Eb's has left me less than thrilled by the Willson model. However, the Yamaha is a more modest-sized horn, and my quintet wants to hear BASS. Hence my consideration of something larger. (I suppose I could bring a mic and a bass guitar amp to my gigs ....!)

Cheers,
Steve Inman
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Post by Tom Holtz »

Steve Inman wrote:However, the Yamaha is a more modest-sized horn, and my quintet wants to hear BASS.
Have you used your 56J much with them? Try it--they may change their tune. The trumpet players around here all say they want bass, that is, until they have to work to be heard and the tuba player is sucking back the volume to stay balanced.

Granted, that's a fingering nightmare for all the rep you know cold on Eb, but if you've got it in the stable, give it a ride.
      
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Post by Mark »

For most, the best tuba is the one Alfred Stieglitz uses,
For much of the rest the best tuba is hot air,
But for the special few who communicate with animal spirits,
the best tuba is the one He plays.

Burma Shave


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Steve Inman
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Post by Steve Inman »

Tom Holtz wrote:
Steve Inman wrote:However, the Yamaha is a more modest-sized horn, and my quintet wants to hear BASS.
Have you used your 56J much with them? Try it--they may change their tune. The trumpet players around here all say they want bass, that is, until they have to work to be heard and the tuba player is sucking back the volume to stay balanced.

Granted, that's a fingering nightmare for all the rep you know cold on Eb, but if you've got it in the stable, give it a ride.
Actually, I've been using the 56J for the past 9 months, as I had to have some repair work done to the Eb last fall, then I had a couple of church orchestra opportunities, then a brass choir, etc -- all better with CC. The Eb is ready to go, but I haven't switched back yet.

I seem to pick one horn, or the other, and use it exclusively for a long period of time, then switch to the other. Every time, it's a new fingering nightmare for a while. I need to dedicate a couple of months to using both, daily, until it's no big deal. Sadly, the quintet likes the 56J with a fairly large mpc (std. Helleberg). Works fine with a Fats Waller tune, but it's not the sound I want when a 2nd 'bone part comes up!

My best compromise is the 381 with the Helleberg. Probably heresy to the UK Eb-ers, but it lets me get a bigger sound -- albeit fairly focused.

Cheers,
Steve Inman
Yamaha YEB-381 Eb
Conn 56J CC
Willson-Marzan CC Solo Model
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YEB 381S mp

Post by pwhitaker »

I used a Marcinkiewicz N1-S for about 10 years on my 381 with a brass quintet and trad jazz. In point of fact I never found a MP which was too big for that horn, and I have some monster (36 mm) MP's. If they made that horn with a front-action valveset I would buy it in a heartbeat.
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Post by Highams »

Well my student bit the bullet and purchased the latest 982 E flat tuba from Besson. After trying many variants together, it came down to the Willson v the Besson. The Willson had the slightly better lower register, but being a much bigger instrument (in dimensions) the Besson was the easier model to use (she is quite petite).

I had a good blow on it and can't really fault it, there were very minor finish problems with the s/p and the engraving on the bell had very rough edges indeed.

Time will tell.

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Post by Tubaguyry »

The best horn by far that I have ever played is the Rusk-cut York that belongs to my teacher, Dr. Jeff Hodapp. I was having some problems with the school-owned Mirafone 186, so he let me use his horn for wind ensemble rehearsal one day. I felt I could play nothing wrong on that horn. Every single note slotted effortlessly in all registers, and the intonation was perfect.

For several years I really liked my Weril, since it sounded nice and did everything I asked it. Then I started playing the school's 186 this year, and was amazed at how easy tuba playing can be. Stepping up from the Mirafone to the York was even more profound an improvement that stepping up from the Weril to the Mirafone.

So I guess for me, the perfect horn is that York.
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Post by eupher61 »

Tubaguyry wrote:.

For several years I really liked my Weril, since it sounded nice and did everything I asked it. Then I started playing the school's 186 this year, and was amazed at how easy tuba playing can be. Stepping up from the Mirafone to the York was even more profound an improvement that stepping up from the Weril to the Mirafone.
Ignoring the topic, and hijacking it to my own desires....

RYAN....serious question--what mouthpiece are you using with your Weril? I have the BBb version, just wondering...
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Post by keronarts »

Well, I'm certainly glad that a couple of you guys dug up this thread that had developed earlier in the year, as it's a really good topic. I try to be mindful of the desired result, and that's the tuba in my head that's usually trying like hell to have something of that bright Roger Bobo projective sound that you could imagine cutting through almost anything. He's been my gold standard among tuba players then and since, so I wanted to try to work with something close to what he did, and see if I could model my approach that way. That's why I got myself a Mirafone 186 5U CC WAAYYY back in '72, and, even though I've gotten a succession of approving comments on it over the years [by both Abe Torchinsky and Toby Hanks, among many others ....], many on this forum have spoken highly about that model in general, further confirming long-standing suspicions. Now of course we can't always play under ideal sound recording studio conditions, so adjustments need to be made, usually finagling the mouthpieces around. And the Mirafone just doesn't deliver the hall shaking sound sometimes expected [and demanded] of the tuba player. Those times might be better-reserved for something bigger that really packs a punch.

More recently, I've had other horns and sold them off, but right now I also work with a Meinl Weston 45 SLP that I can get some fine results with. Generally I'm happy with the horn. It has some weaknesses, but I generally can compensate for them so that the result is pretty close to optimal results without too much work. Sometimes, it isn't the easiest thing to get to output as thoroughly light as I might like. Some of you guys on here like the Firebird, and that might be a solution. I've tried the Firebird and like the lighter feel -- just that I have a personal continuing uneasiness about rotor valves -- IN SPITE of the Mirafone 186! But -- Doc and others -- you're right -- there IS a good horn there ...

I am looking for a bigger, darker, phatter horn, and several have come to my attention. The MW Thor is a fine and dandy one -- not so much for the wide fluffy sound, but the low range kicks ***, intonation is generally REALLY fine, ease of articulation rate it high on the food chain. But pulling tuning slides seems to rival pulling teeth out of a chicken. That might all be rectified by a visit to bloke's -- any place to pitch a tent down there while while all us prospective Thor customers have our sticky slides tooled up? I would like to stack it up, though, against the MW 2265 [I salivate at the descriptions that the elephant has laid on us about his 2265 ....] and the Baer 6450 [another apparently well-done addition that could certainly shine, and, if it could really extend that Mirafone sound to its ultimate ULTIMATE ... well, what else is there? ...]

The PT-6 seems to have its many fans but my concerns with it include the design of the third and fourth valve tubes that seem to include a couple of hair-pin turns. Now that apparently flies in the face of fluid dynamics. Rick Denney or someone might be able to help clarify, but air is a fluid, and when it goes crashing into metal walls and around sharp corners -- instead of along long smoother bends, there is doubtlessly going to be something of a less-than-desirable differential there. This would be among the reasons I'd be a little skittish about the horn. Yet I've also been fairly well convinced about the instrument's merits while having the privilege of listening to Carol Jantsch summers here in Saratoga Springs with the Philly Orchestra, and, yes, she does some genuinely beautiful work with her PT-6. After experiencing that, what's not to consider? The Gronitz PCK also has a few REALLY sharp bends on that fifth valve tubing, but overall gets very high accolades. They all seem to have their quirks, yet the obligation of the better player is to find ways through the mine field. Definitely one to be considered -- besides, another great excuse for a trip to Hamburg to check in with family there ....

Occasionally, Mike Sanders chimes in here with news about his Yorkbrunner, all of which seems to be quite positive. Yet he had worked for quite a while with an Alexander 163, as did Chet Schmitz in the BSO. That Chet Schmitz Alex sound is a GREAT thing on so much BSO work -- in the right place, wow, what a terrific presence. Even if it were to come through in smaller groups -- where you need to project that way, why not the Alex? Yet the Alex, apparently just like the Yorkbrunner, can be a different quirky beast -- an island unto itself, and aside from possibilities of intonation difficulties with each, there can be considerable variation in consistency from horn to horn. But if you find the right one that hits that certain sweet spot, there isn't much reason to look back.

I'm also also wondering if a hybrid concoction might also be the most desirable horn. I've thought about what the Rudi Meinl 4345 might do if its carcass were grafted onto their 5-4 rotor horn outer body so that the result would be a bigger, darker, woofier sound --- BUT have the dexterity of the lighter piston-based guts of the sound producing center. Hey, why not include Diespeck on the itinerary after Hamburg to find out the answer, right? That sort of pulling the best features out of several quarters to get an ultimately desirable end-result is something that also seems to wash with several of the repair-type folks I've chatted with. So maybe there isn't any "one best horn" per se, but that best horn might be a combination of the best parts of several of them.

Now all that's just going low and phatt. What about high, light, and thin? As above, possibility of the Firebird. I've heard and thought some good things about the MW 2182. Bob 1062, among others, doesn't seem to like the stove-pipe-like construction of the horn, but it might also depend on what you're trying to model and simulate with your playing, what your bigger goals are, where you usually do most of your work. Maybe that one's a solution, maybe it isn't. The Yamaha 821 has that funky construction of the fifth valve happening FIRST -- BEFORE any of the first four valves. Instead of a dependent fifth, seems like we have a dependent 1-4. ..... ()@*&#*&@) But who knows, maybe it also doesn't make for any kind of a bump in the road. Have only had the chance to VERY briefly sample one, and not enough to form a definite opinion yet.

And then we have the VERY occasional foray into eupher land. Again it might depend on your specific work and goals, but have you checked out that little stable that Rick Denney keeps? [Sorry to put you on the spot here, Rick .... ] Something like that could work with a good higher register horn for those times and places -- but then again, you might be onto completely different. Also, how often are you REALLY going to need it and would it justify the investment? It seems that the best answer is to come to terms with what you want to and need to do, and then to graft onto that whatever best floats the boat from the myriad possibility that's supposed to mimic that mental tuba. That could be just one horn and one mouthpiece, but it could be many. Depends on what you need to do and where you want to go. And maybe bloke has a GREAT caveat with the one that "generates the largest paychecks for the lowest quantity of blows ....." :lol: :lol:
Last edited by keronarts on Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by iiipopes »

Once the air transitions the embouchure to make the lips vibrate as a function of the Bernoulli principal, reform in the cup and transition the throat into the receiver, fluid dynamics has less to do with the behavior of the tuba and static wave theory has more to do with it.
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Post by kingrob76 »

Clearly, the very best tuba out there is.... mine. And it can be had, too, if you're willing to write the check. :wink:
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Post by armytuba »

For those looking to purchase a BBb, especially military bands seeking to replace or add to their current stable of BBb's, may I suggest the new PT-605. It's a little on the pricey side, but if you can work it into your budget, you won't be disappointed. Here's a pic of one next to my Rudy Meinl CC:

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Post by iiipopes »

Hey, armytuba -- nice! Please tell us more: how it plays, comparative tone to some of the better known tubas, etc. Also, is this the same tuba listed as the GR-51 everywhere else besides Custom Music Corp.?
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