your opinion: REAL sightreading for orchestral auditions

[Mark]

Cloudburst - Grand Canyon Suite - Grofé

This would be my first choice. I don't understand why this is not part of the standard audition rep. This is a tough lick and would be great to sight read with the trombones.

Here are a couple more suggestions. Both are regularly played, but I don't remember seeing them on any audition lists:

Verdi - La Forza del Destino Overture

Holst - Jupiter from The Planets

[windshieldbug]

WSB - if the person were truely sightreading, how would they understand the nuances of the ensemble playing? Is the part a chorale, or is it more like Prok5 exposed playing? I'm not familiar with the piece.

Ben,
It is more like Prok, though without the theatrics. It's a performed enough piece that any player with experience OR just plain orchestral knowledge is likely to have encountered it, yet rare enough and not soloistic enough that it's not likely to have been something one's teacher has put them through.

I think that it can show several things, twentieth century exposure, and musical knowledge including orchestral experience and not simply pyrotechniques.

I've been mean enough to put people through this, and have been pleased with the results. People show that they know their place in the texture by not just blasting parts. And this is something that one is likely to have to play.
Mike

[Chuck Jackson]

GREAT POST!!!!

I wouldn't do the Holst as it pops up with some frequency on auditions. Here are mine:

"In the South" AKA "Alessio" by Elgar- ouch, hard, fast, low, high

"The Temptation of Saint Anthony" (I think this is right, someone correct me) From "Church Windows" by Resphigi- Fountains on steroids.

Vaughn-Williams 4, Scherzo, the grandaddy of hard.

Bamboula Squared-Charles Wourinen- I played the World Premiere in Colorado Springs in November 1984. It took me two days to figure out the counting, two really nasty tuba licks.

Webern 6 Pieces-there is a section of counting on a first line g that I swear is impossible. Many years ago, Kevin Ladd gave me a hand written copy of the section and I never did figure it out.

I seem to remember in Torchinsky's 20th Century Book a piece by Paul Creston that was all over the place. Rhythmically challenging and a solo that was real high.

Chuck"glad I'm not the one auditioning"Jackson

[Mark]

I'm not familiar with the piece.

Here is a brief excerpt that hopefully doesn't run afoul of the copyright. The tempo is very fast (it's a thunderstorm).

[joebob]

It seems to me that if you really want to test the sightreading capability of a candidate, then you have to use music that there is no chance they have seen. Otherwise those who have seen or played the music have an advantage and you aren't actually hearing how well they sightread.

On a different point, in my experience, orchestral auditions often don't have candidates sightread (even though sightreading is often listed as a possible requirement). The reason for this is probably that sightreading is rarely required in an orchestra job. Generally an orchestral player will have access to the music several days ahead of the first rehearsal. There are exceptions to this, like when arrangements for a pops show may not be readily available, but even then you generally get them at least an hour or so before the rehearsal. Maybe a better test for an orchestra is to give each player 15 minutes or so to practice a part they've never seen.

[Alex C]

Most orchestral auditions do not include "sight reading" and, in reality, you don't do much sight reading in most orchestral positions.

I heard "one of those stories" about Phil Meyers of the NY Phil. At his audition he refused to sight read. He reasoning: (paraphrased) "I don't sight read. I prepare for rehearsals. You expect me to prepare for rehearsals and if I do have to sight read at a rehearsal it's because the management isn't doing it's job."

Don't know if it's a true story but I agree with the logic.

Oh well, to join in the fray, if they do want sight reading at an audition, I think it should be the first tuba part to Arcana by Varese. It's angular, shows dynamics and flexibility and most people haven't seen the part. In addition, they should require all of the major and minor scales (all forms) in 16th notes at mm=144. Tongued and slurred.

[windshieldbug]

Why do they have to play ONLY orchestral stuff?

How about band, brass band, or quintet stuff?

Maybe the brass band version of the Planets that is one step lower? Let's see who is paying attention!!

Why not on a different horn, too?

[windshieldbug]

Why don't they have to play The Planets on different keyed horns? Let's see who is paying attention!!



_________________
Buy Bob's Eb's!

[windshieldbug]

It's the same difference!

[Steve Inman]

i.e. -- same reason one might refuse to even perform sight reading -- it's not a requirement for the job. Neither is band music for an orchestral tubist, etc.

I applaud someone for passing on a sight-reading requirement (as was suggested earlier) -- but you're really taking a big stand on principle, with a big risk.

Cheers,

[windshieldbug]

BoB,

All ribbing aside, you miss the entire point of orchestral audition sight-reading. These are not band seating auditions; you are not looking to catch someone out. You didn't get past the tape and resume to the live audition if you can't play damn near anything at sight already. More over, the audition committee (strings and woodwinds included) must already have not just the notes, but the context in their heads for this to do any good.

Rather, you are looking to see how the candidate reacts to a part that THEY HAVE NOT PREPARED FOR THE AUDITION. The ideal candidate will not only know the piece, but have already played it, and have a firm concept in their mind of what they need to do for a first run-through.

Yes, it favors experienced players, but so does the business world. GM does not make a BS new-hire their CEO (no matter how gifted), but expects a Wharton MBA with Marketing, Development, and Engineering experience, preferably already running a Division such as Cadillac. Musicians are better off, because you're interviewing behind a screen most of the time, while in business you're looking right across a desk at the person with your resume.

Yes band parts are LIKELY unfamiliar music, but you can't be sure, and it's an awful lot like picking an NFL punter by how well he kicks a soccer ball. You can see general athletic ability, and they MIGHT change balls in football, but it's very, very unlikely. And looking at some of the punters with jobs today, I'd say that GENERAL ATHLETICISM isn't exactly a requirement...

[tubaman5150]

I feel there is merit in having sightreading being a part of any audition. I agree that preparation for rehearsal is always better than trying to "shoot from the hip", but I would think that a committee would be just as interested in seeing the canidate play under real pressure without copious amounts of preparation.
Its often been said on this board that there are always several players out of any audition that could have won that gig. I would suppose that sighreading helps sort these folks out.
That being said, I'm starting to wonder if sightreading is becoming a lost art form for the orchestral musician.

[LoyalTubist]

A professional orchestra job isn't like a school band or orchestra. Time is money, even though you don't get paid for auditioning (in fact you pay for your travel--the only auditioning I did where they paid for my travel was when I joined the Army band program). Generally, from my experience, you won't play anything in an orchestra audition you wouldn't normally play in the job. So the idea of playing a brass band or concert band part of the music the orchestra would play doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense to me.

[windshieldbug]

That being said, I'm starting to wonder if sightreading is becoming a lost art form for the orchestral musician.

Au contraire, I think that there are times that an orchestral musician plays works with which they may not familiar without preparation. What one IS expected to do, however, is make the best use of concert time or rehearsal time.

[LoyalTubist]

Agreed. Sight reading is ESSENTIAL.

[tubaman5150]

That being said, I'm starting to wonder if sightreading is becoming a lost art form for the orchestral musician.

Au contraire, I think that there are times that an orchestral musician plays works with which they may not familiar without preparation. What one IS expected to do, however, is make the best use of concert time or rehearsal time.

I agree, but I was commenting that it has been downplayed lately amonst many orchestra musicians I've met and worked with. That Phil Meyers story sounds nuts, but I've heard the same types of complaints locally from unionized, "professional" musicians.

[MartyNeilan]

Why don't they hand out some of those Texas "high school" audition pieces?
(and don't give them any time to count the ledgers)

[iiipopes]

Besides, the way orchestras tend recycle their material, with relatively little new repertoire, what is there to sight read, anyway?

[djwesp]

I BELIEVE in sightreading for Orchestral auditions.


The last two auditions I have been to, the bulk of those present were "just getting an audition under their belt", were "getting experience", were doing it for credit for orchestral rep classes, or other such things.


Adding legitimate sight reading would minimize this. If you aren't confident enough to sight read in front of a panel (as most of these players can barely get thru the material), then you shouldn't be there to begin with.


This goes under the same category of those who gripe and complain about Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique and Romeo and Juliet. DEAL WITH IT. If you want to get paid to do what you are doing, you should play it, regardless of whether or not it was intended for something closer to a french tuba than a bass.


Most orchestra conductors can't look at your horn and see the difference between a bass and a contrabass, let alone know what authentic instrumentation for the time period was.


Wes "who has performed from sight for two little kids concerts (or bach in blue jeans, as it is called)--it does happen!" Pendergrass

[tubaman5150]

I feel there is merit in having sightreading being a part of any audition. I agree that preparation for rehearsal is always better than trying to "shoot from the hip", but I would think that a committee would be just as interested in seeing the canidate play under real pressure without copious amounts of preparation. Its often been said on this board that there are always several players out of any audition that could have won that gig. I would suppose that sighreading helps sort these folks out.

I feel there's already enough useless bullshit associated with "fairness" and "determining the best player" to the point where the whole orchestral audition exercise is a joke in the US. Do you hear me? A JOKE. And threads like this one feed that situation. Sight reading for the most part as an audition discriminator would be pointless, to attempt it would just feed more of the endless practice-room jock whining about fairness and "so-and-so has played that before" bullshit. It is no damn wonder that the cynicism of management (and even players/selection committee members) has got to the point where wholesale ensembles are tanking, not on their lack of ability or ensemble-ness but on their ridiculous approach to business. Think about it, how often has constant public second-guessing of any profession improved that profession in the long run? It feeds cynicism, and apathy. NO one who has posted here in this thread would question ANY sight-reading capability of ANY (full-time professional) orchestral chair winners. But if they would, then they are apes

Joe has created a rose brass herring, and he oughta be commended for duping so many well-meaning freak jury members into going along with it.

Since I have no more interest in pursuing an orchestra chair due to said audition "process", I'm confused about what part of what I said was "useless bullshit"?
Yeah..
There is alot of rhetoric about merit versus ability in the ever so lofty orchestra "business", but so what. Politics and professional music are shamlessly joined at the hip to the extent that pointing out that relationship is cliche. But so is whining about those who whine about it.
It's my (and your) God given right to bitch about things I have no business with. I would suspect that's why Bloke enjoys stirring the pot so much.
As for sightreading in general, it's has gotten me more gigs than my degrees, reputation, pedigree, hair color, shoe size...whatever. If an audtion commitee wants to use sightreading to squeeze the private parts of an auditionee, more power to them. If they want to the candidate to do the watusi while whistling the 1812 Overture, then put up or shut up. The process may be a joke and I agree, but it beats working in fast food business (the haven for the cynical and the apathetic).
Whew...

Rant over.
Its always fun to get on our respective high horses about topics which have little real impact on most of us freak jury, but makes for good cannon fodder.