Big BBb Piston Tubas still being made

Bandmaster · Post by **Bandmaster** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 12:05 am

Mitch wrote:If I win the lottery, I'll get the Baer. At least so I'll have a great horn to play while Dan Oberloh overhauls the Martin.

Then it could look something like this BBb Martin 6/4 Dan put together!

WakinAZ · Post by **WakinAZ** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:32 pm

What's up, big man?

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:13 pm

JCRaymo wrote:...I am not sure if they are even 37" high. My Eb is taller than my CC. I think the CC/BBb are around 34.5 inches high.

Now, I'm going to challenge that one. I've had a 3100 in my lap on several occasions, and I had to look seriously up to see the top. It felt significantly bigger in my hands than does my Holton, and the Holton is 39 inches tall and somewhat fatter. Maybe they've made different versions, but I suspect the extra two feet in the Bb's open bugle is added at the joints between the upper and lower bows.

The new-style King 2341 is 36 inches tall, and the edge of the bell just about bops me in the head.

Rick "who has never held a 3050" Denney

SplatterTone · Post by **SplatterTone** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:03 pm

if I could find one that didn't go SPLAT at any volume on D to B below the clef

Listen for it. Two full lungs of air in each A-flat. 191 with TU33.
http://t-recs.net/mpegs/tubenet/a_flat.wma

imperialbari · Post by **imperialbari** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:32 pm

In a way this whole discussion is odd. The way I gathered it was, that it was the huge American BBb tubas which were the foundation for the whole line of piston CC BAT's. The Chicago York's may not be cut BBb's, but they are based on BBb models.

Bloke some years ago outed, that the BAT's could be considered huge sousaphones wrapped back to the original tuba shape.

And now there is no American production of BBb BAT's. One large sousaphone is still made in limited numbers, but due to its special valve system it is kind of a sidetrack from the general development (albeit a widely popular sidetrack).

In my eyes it is kind of sad, that some of the best tuba models in regards of sound haven't been in production for about 70 years.

One sinner may be the US military system. There is not much reason for using CC tubas there, pitchwise. If military bands had provided a stable market for large high-end BBb BAT's, they very likely still had been made.

This is not a partisan political point of view. Rather an attempt of a look on market mechanisms.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

The Big Ben · Post by **The Big Ben** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:19 am

I haven't seen new Holtons brought up here yet.

What size is the latest 'Harvey Phillips' Holton? It looks big and has pistons also, which is what the OP was getting at.

Bandmaster · Post by **Bandmaster** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:32 am

The Big Ben wrote:I haven't seen new Holtons brought up here yet.

What size is the latest 'Harvey Phillips' Holton? It looks big and has pistons also, which is what the OP was getting at.

Because there are not even close to BAT status. They are 4/4 in size.

Liberty Mo · Post by **Liberty Mo** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:37 am

Bandmaster wrote:
The Big Ben wrote:I haven't seen new Holtons brought up here yet.

What size is the latest 'Harvey Phillips' Holton? It looks big and has pistons also, which is what the OP was getting at.
Because there are not even close to BAT status. They are 4/4 in size.

Having played one for about six months, they are on the SMALL end of the 4/4 spectrum. I found it to be overpriced for the product and limited to a quintet or solo setting. It did however work well in jazz.

The Big Ben · Post by **The Big Ben** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:40 am

Liberty Mo wrote:
Bandmaster wrote:
The Big Ben wrote:I haven't seen new Holtons brought up here yet.

What size is the latest 'Harvey Phillips' Holton? It looks big and has pistons also, which is what the OP was getting at.
Because there are not even close to BAT status. They are 4/4 in size.
Having played one for about six months, they are on the SMALL end of the 4/4 spectrum. I found it to be overpriced for the product and limited to a quintet or solo setting. It did however work well in jazz.

I guess that's why...

I saw it described as a 5/4 somewhere else but I guess they are wrong too!

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 5:18 pm

the elephant wrote:(I worked in a shop full time for ten years at a store whose student line brass house horns were all Holtons, so I can say what I did with lots of experience with thousands of horns to back it up: great designs with so-so build quality at a very high price. The Phillips tuba was just a bigger version of these horns, IMO, as far as construction goes.)

Even the 345 was in that category, though I don't know about the price at the time they were new.

Joe and I joked that the primary tool used by Holton "craftsmen" must have been a belt sander.

You just about have to remanufacture them them work, but in some cases it's worth it.

Rick "thinking American manufacturers earned their loss of dominance fair and square" Denney

TUbajohn20J · Post by **TUbajohn20J** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 5:23 pm

I just love my 20J

J.c. Sherman · Post by **J.c. Sherman** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:25 pm

While it's not a BAT, a student of mine has a Harvey Phillips model Holton BBb, which I think is terrific! Lucky kid; it's a school instrument. It can rock the house pretty well. When I repaired it (it had not been played in years), I didn't want to give it back.

I wish I could try the CC version!

J.c.

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:54 pm

And while it's not a BAT, either, the Conn 20K souzy is considered large for a souzy, and would approach a 6/4 if it were in tuba wrap rather than souzy wrap.

TUbajohn20J · Post by **TUbajohn20J** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:52 pm

tubashaman wrote:John are you going to go anywhere and major in music? BTW your sister is my spanish lab teacher

how do you know? you dont even know me

josh_kaprun · Post by **josh_kaprun** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:47 pm

Bad news. Getzen doesn't have any Wilson horns at TMEA. They didn't get their first shipment of horns in early enough to take them with them to TMEA. So, you will all have to wait until ITEC for me to post a picture of how to hold the 3100S.

GC · Post by GC » Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:09 pm

Rick,

I debated buying a Holton 345 about '72, and the band director's discount price with case was $1200. I chose instead a MW 25, with case, for $910.

I wasn't able to try either one before buying. If I only knew then what I know now . . .

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 4:59 pm

GC wrote:I debated buying a Holton 345 about '72, and the band director's discount price with case was $1200. I chose instead a MW 25, with case, for $910.

I wasn't able to try either one before buying. If I only knew then what I know now . . .

I dunno, you were probably more likely to get a good, consistent, versatile tuba with the 25. A bad 345 could have ruined you for life!

Rick "who would NEVER spend real money for a Holton sight unseen" Denney

Lee Stofer · Post by **Lee Stofer** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:34 pm

I liked rick Denney's comment about Holton, when he was in my shop in Atlanta about 3 years ago. He said something to the effect of, "the Holton 345 was the triumph of great design over faulty manufacturing", and after repairing factory-original defects in that horn, I'd say he was 100% right. He has a great BBb. Professor Michael Moore of the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra has a CC345 that he bought whe studying with Mr. Jacobs. Prof. Moore said that the valves were so bad that they took the horn to Reynold Schilke when it was scarcely a year old, to have the valves rebuilt. When I first worked on it, I could see that the bracing had been adjusted somewhat when he put it back together, and it resulted in a great horn.

The word I hear from Germany is that Walter Hilgers is about the only person on the planet that can play a 197 in tune, so they do not promote that model, but the excellent Fafner model instead.

The Kanstul does not immediately seem to be as large as a Martin, but it is. I've played both vintage Martins and Kanstuls on gigs, and the Kanstul is as close to a dead-ringer for the old Martin Mammoth that had the smaller valve bore as you can find. I mentioned it because it is a really healthy 5/4, largest tuba built in America in half a century, an actual American-made large piston BBb.

oedipoes · Post by **oedipoes** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:15 pm

hi there,

It's been a while since last post for this thread, but i've only been reading this one recently.

I've been at the last Frankfurt Messe, and tried all that looked like tuba.
The Willson 3100 FA-5 was by far the best large piston valve tuba there.
No other instrument had such smooth valve action, combined with a really huge sound. Ergonomics were pretty good for such a big horn, and I'm only 1.76m tall.
The size looked like 5.5/4 to me, The sound was 6.5/4 or so !!

The only tuba bigger was the excellent Rudolf Meinl 6/4 BBb (but rotary valved and 16000 EUR ...) Rudolf Meinl brought an excellent 4/4 size piston valve BBb tuba too, (11500 EUR) but that one was smaller of course.

The Miraphone 12915 BBb was fine, but had a smaller sound and I did not like the valves at all.

bye

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:07 am

oedipoes wrote:...The size looked like 5.5/4 to me, The sound was 6.5/4 or so !!

The only tuba bigger was the excellent Rudolf Meinl 6/4 BBb...

The Willson 3100 is closer to 6/4 in the Yorkish sense than is the Rudy. The Rudy is an 8/4. Maybe 10/4.

I have a picture, not yet posted, of a Rudy 6/4 next to a Holton BB-345.

In terms of the sheer joy of playing a monster tuba, the Rudy ranked much higher to me than the Willson. If I actually had to play it in an ensemble routinely, I might not think so, and the Willson is a good tuba by any measure. But the Rudy quickens my pulse.

Rick "thinking the RM requires two strong native bearers" Denney

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Big BBb Piston Tubas still being made

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